Can I ask SystemA M170 spring questions here?

[AnakChan]

I was flamed when I posted this on Arnie's Airsoft on 1J limit rulings but I don't see any such limition here. If I missed something though, my apologies in advance. So here it goes...

I'm having problems trying to drive SystemA's M170 spring with a Magnum motor, super torque up gears, and 12V in a version 6 box. It winds back and locks up. When I losen the mechabox screws, the spring decompresses. At this point I'm not even certain if the reverse latch is locking it up, which at least then I can guess that I may not have shimmed the gears carefully. However with lower end springs, I know the very same gears are shimmed correctly 'cos it doesn't lock up.

Therefore has anyone successfully managed to drive this M170 spring with the Magnum motor? Can anyone give any pointers where I may have gone wrong? Admittedl the *very* first time I tried to put spring in, it bent a little so it's a little curved. Could this be the cause?

TIA

[Greylocks]

Our limits are around 400fps. What you suggest would most likely be illegal in Canada or if not illegal, pretty much unsafe. That means we're not likely to be able to give you more than theoretical answers at best.

Where are you located? If you are in Canada, I would not even think about that level of upgrade.

[Kid]

I can't say many people can help you here, but! I can suggest that you check out the Filipino websites because they have a lot of high FPS guns and play at crazy speeds.

They will be able to help you out

[mcguyver]

Likely, you do not have enough current capacity to drive the motor with that much load. Even with a new Magnum motor, you are going to need a shitload of current, likely 3000 mah is going to barely cut it.

When you double the output velocity of a gun, the spring requires at least 4 times the current to turn it over. This is in a "perfect world" scenario where inductive losses and resistive losses in a motor don't exist. In the real world, these losses can be extreme as you are coming very close to the design limits of this motor. In reality, you likely would need 6-8 times the current capacity of your battery to turn that motor.

Imagine taking a 4000 mah battery (big) and reducing it's capacity by 8 times. Do you think a stock gun at 300 fps will run very well on 500mah? Of course not. And even with 4000mah, you still need to factor in the instantaneous discharge rate of the battery in order to overcome the minimum in-rush current demands of a Magnum motor with an M170 (it's going to be big). Ni-cad batteries are generally better for this, but Ni-mh are not too shabby either, but generally the stated capacity needs to be alot bigger to make them as effective as the Ni-cad.

[AnakChan]

Thanks for the responses guys..

McGuyver, I thought mAh had to do with the life of the battery rather than the current draw. So right now my battery is a NiCad 12V 600mAh. Whilst I don't expect it to last long, duration-wise, but I'd thought it still be able to supply sufficient current to drive the motor. lsn't the only way to increase discharge rate by having higher voltage in these batteries?

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by AnakChan

I thought mAh had to do with the life of the battery rather than the current draw. So right now my battery is a NiCad 12V 600mAh. Whilst I don't expect it to last long, duration-wise, but I'd thought it still be able to supply sufficient current to drive the motor. lsn't the only way to increase discharge rate by having higher voltage in these batteries?

No. The mah rating does have to do with the life-span of the battery when the current draw is less than the mah rating by a fair stretch. In your case, 600mah is simply way too small. With a 3000+ mah battery, you could talk about how many rounds/charge, but first you need to be able to run the motor from any piston position. This will include during near-maximum spring compression.

The battery voltage will indicate to you how fast your motor will turn and how quickly the magnetic field in the motor windings builds up, but it has nothing at all to do with the magnetic strength of your motor field (ie. the abitlity of the motor to overcome the inertia of the connected load). Current is what you want. If you have to sacrifice one for the other, give up voltage to get more current. Your gun would run rather well on a 7.2v 4000 mah battery, but 12v 600 mah gives you the problem you're currently having.

Sometimes battery fit is an issue as most AEGs offer limited space for batteries. If you have trouble with this, give up #'s of cells (10 for 12v) and go with a lower voltage and bigger mah (6 cells for 7.2v).

[Greylocks]

In a nutshell, you want to have a gun that goes too far above what an airsoft gun should be.

Get a real gun at this point.

You still have not answered the other questions; where are you located and how old are you? Our answers will vary according to what is legal where you live. Do that by filling out your profile.

[AnakChan]

McGuyver,

Cheers...got a 12V1700mAh and it does drive it. Yup, 600mAh too low.

Greylocks,

Nah, real guns are hard to get in the Far East. Sounds like you're choosing who to help based on their location and age :-). I looked up about getting age verified but seems to be possible only via eyeball in Canada. Anyway, I'm in Japan and I'm in my mid 30's. The gun isn't gonna be used for playing, it's merely to see how far I can get it. I've customed 2 other mechaboxes, one with Angs 0.9J spring giving me about 0.9 -> 0.92J, and another was customed by the shop with an Angel 120% spring giving me about 0.85-0.86J.

Cheers for your help guys!

[Greylocks]

Then just add Japan as your location in your profile? If it says so right there, nobody will have to ask. Same for your age, you can put that in too.

Yes, the answers WILL vary depending on your age and where you are. What you are suggesting would be pretty much illegal in Canada, or certainly far above what would be allowed at any game.

Japan has different laws than us, so yes, that means the answers will be different. It would be illogical to assume that our laws match yours.

Right now you are going so far above what is allowed here that finding a decent answer will be difficult. An M170 spring will strain your gears, mechbox, wiring, and force you to try power supplies and levels for which the guns were never designed in the first place. One of the highest powered springs we tend to use is the M120, so that gives you an idea of the differences.

Fair enough?

[AnakChan]

Hi Greylocks, yeah..fair enough. I've updated my profile now to display my location and age. Apologies, been a little busy with work recently.

Are there places where high joules are allowed? In UK it's 1J, and in Canada it seems to be 400fps. In Japan, when playing a game it has to be 0.98J and below (not certain about non-games though). Surprised that if it's illegal in so many places why SystemA would sell M170 springs.

Anyhow, for that mechabox, it's mainly SystemA with the Magnum Motor, High Torque Up gears, aluminium piston (the Angel polycarbonate didn't cut it), Prometheus cylinder head but I'm gonna change that to a SystemA cylinder head. Last night's test broke my nozzle of all things. Somewhat surprising as I thought there's little relationship between the spring and the nozzle.

But thanks to everyone for their help esp about the mAh...

[Greylocks]

What will probably break, in no particular order; the gear teeth, the piston teeth, the piston head, the mechbox frame will separate or snap, the motor may burn out, the wiring may overheat, fuses will blow. Really any moving part will probably suffer. The surfaces where the piston impacts will probably go first.

Yes, they sell insane powered springs. Some folks, for legal reasons in their country, cannot have access to firearms or even accurate pellet guns. I think that is the case for much of Asia and Japan, but you would know better than me.

So... they offer aftermarket parts that people hope will do the trick. Simple ballistics will tell you there is only so much you can do with a smoothbore gun shooting a round plastic ball with a backspin system. Yet people still believe in miracles and dreams.

I'd rather have a perfectly balanced AEG that shoots at 350fps flatly and consistently for a good 50 yards than a monster gun that shoots above 500fps but must be fixed or tweaked all the time. 350 can be done simply with a spring and metal bushings, so there is a huge economy there.

[takatorikku]

hehehe, another japanese brother! welcome nii-san. one question: are you ever gonna field the gun, bring it to an airsoft game? because i assure you, the power you want to push out could be potentially lethal given the right angle and etc. i mean, hell i got shot with a 300fps AEG from about 50 feet away and it still hurt like a bitch. i always apologize to guys i hit with my rifle, it hits 330, and i know it hurts.

if you want to create the most powerful gun you can, go ahead, it sounds like a lot of fun! just remember to keep it in your showroom and take your spare lightly modded gun out to games. keeps everyone happy and probably you away from a lawsuit when you shatter someone's goggles and put their eye out.

TK OUT! *BAMF*

[AnakChan]

Hi Taka-san,

No, the high spec M170 Ver6 mechabox is not used in games, just for demo. I've got another hi speed Ver6 mechabox for games. The P90 is very conveniently designed for plug 'n play. So for games, I put in the high speed Ver6 mechabox in my P90 - SystemA Turbo, Angs 0.9J, SystemA All Helical High Speed Gears, Angel Oilless Bushings, SystemA Hi Speed Polycarbonate Piston and Head, SystemA Cylinder Head, and Prometheus Cylinder.

I also have an M4A1 with almost the same components as the P90 hi speed, except for this I use an Echigoya cylinder...interesting design - no holes but inner walls are thinner on the "open end" and thicker (sealed) on the cylinder end. Both the self-customed hi speed Ver6 and Ver2 mechabox shoot at 0.9 -> 0.92J with 0.2g BB's powered by NiMh 12V 1400mAh batteries.

I also have a Echigoya-customed P90 with a 420mm barrel for an in-between CQB/sniping. This one shoots at 0.86J.

[OT] Ayumi fan :-)!! Cool...I'm a Norika Fujiwara fan - sad news she's getting married. [/OT]

[takatorikku]

lol. my AEGs are stock, i don't like hurting people anymore than I already do with them.

Norika Fujiwara you say? never heard her before, I may have to check her out.
I'm mostly Ayu, but I also listen to Koda Kumi, BoA, Utada, Angela Aki, Aya Ueto and I've just gotten a new Sifow album. Her music sounds like something you'd hear in Pokemon lol.

Hope Ayu never marries Tomoyo... He's too tall for her. Yeah, that's right... too tall...

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by takatorikku

Her music sounds like something you'd hear in Pokemon lol.

Like Mezase Pokemon, Hyakugoichi or one of the Poke-rythms?

Kidding.