IR Lasers & DBAL's at games.

[bean]

Fair assessment however I was referencing the ban everything culture. We are wrapping the world in a protective mattress and stupid people are living longer creating stupid children. Should we ban tables because Rob cleaved a chunk out of his leg? Or running because Permal slipped on paintball goop and crashed into the wall.

We don't blame the fork for a private eating to much cheese cake at the mess and getting fat?

As I said before I am up for either because really it doesn't matter to me. Lasers if used appropriately allow for picking your shot easier providing less spray and pray at night. I have taken shots using a laser where I might not have hit where I wanted otherwise. Unlike some people I dont like to shoot people in the face with a laser or a bb.

It does have to be made very very very clear though for night games if they are allowed and the consequences. We play a game on honor rules and hopefully the players can be relied upon to follow the other rules not just calling their hits.

[mmmken]

Perhaps we should introduce as a community, the standard usage of laser safe googles along with the current ballistic requirement?

We already protect our own eyes from impact, why not take the extra step and get laser safe goggles? We are all grown adults here. The protection of your eyes should be your own responsibility. With the current standards in place, no one is going to sympathize for you if your eye gets shot out because you cheaped out and bought $2 repro eyepro. It shouldn't be any different with lasers with the potential of stupid people sneaking on unsafe lasers.

They are your eyes, and they should be your responsibility to protect them. You shouldn't delegate this task to the person firing the laser at you. Although, this all only applies if laser safe lenses work the way I imagine them to work.

[c3sk]

Thank goodness for class 1 eye safe lasers.

[z0ng]

FYI

http://ehs.uky.edu/radiation/laser_fs.html

Class I lasers are low powered devices that are considered safe from all potential hazards. Some examples of Class I laser use are: laser printers, CD players, CD ROM devices, geological survey equipment and laboratory analytical equipment. No individual, regardless of exposure conditions to the eyes or skin, would be expected to be injured by a Class I laser. No safety requirements are needed to use Class I laser devices.

Other useful links:

http://www.rli.com/resources/article...ification.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

[horto]

Originally Posted by Wrath144

So... I have an Element PEQ16A replica. It has an IR and visible laser function, are those eye safe?

This!!!!#$%#$

Not ban this, ban that, ban everything. Ban lasers, because they serve no legitimate WORTHWHILE purpose in airsoft. They are too dangerous, and there is too much of a grey area in what is safe and what is not. Joe Average Airsofters has NO IDEA if their device is safe enough. As for your "class 1 eye safe lasers", scroll back a few pages and you'll see some uncertainty there too.

Short of wearing a welding mask, there is nothing *I* can do to enhance my safety in the matter.

We'd be better off not having them at all. It's just not worth the risk.

(this coming from a guy that has a few deathstar retina destroying green laser PEQ-15s)

[c3sk]

The same could be said about field vehicles being used at games. They have the capability to cause injury or death if an accident were to occur. Yet we have all used them at games time and time again, and to this very date they are still being used at Airsoft games despite the obvious risks. Would I say to ban them? No way, they are fun as hell, and really add to the atmospherics of gameplay. However if the objective is to eliminate the absolute possibility of bodily harm, then quite a lot of "fun" things would need to be removed based on that variable alone.

I think the best policy would be, that if you are uncomfortable with something being used at a game, exercise your right to voice your opinion, and simply do not attend to stay clear of it.



Class 1 rated lasers are black and white. As black and white as the import documents required for them to enter our country under the codes provided by Health Canada. They are the safest of all lasers, the ones that can't cause bodily harm. There is no ambiguity there.

[FlyGuy]

Horto, I totally sympathize with yours and everyone else's concerns but I think that provided a well-conceived policy with extremely harsh penalties for violators is brought forth and understood by all, perhaps there may be some "wiggle room" on the subject...??

Ultimately, if the game organizer wants his or her game to be sans lasers, well dems da rules so remove your toy already or do not attend. Simple logic there.

BUT...

There may be other game hosts who recognize that with proper oversight, lasers can add an additional dimension of realism to the game. I think this has been touched on already or at least slightly grazed but...why not put the onus on the person bringing the laser to clear it with the game org. prior to taking it onto the field? For the same reasons that guns are checked, goggles are checked (or should be), why not ensure that no lasers are allowed unless the game organizer has personally checked each one and approved their use? IF there's any shred of doubt as to the authenticity/origin/safety rating of the device, then the responsible thing to do is for the organizer to deny the laser...period and no arguments from the player either - game control has final word...end of story. Anyone caught on the field with an unchecked/unapproved laser is immediately ejected with a permanent ban plus a name/shame (or ban) here on ASC.

For IR, Class 1 is pretty much it, anything else is fuhggetaboutit. For red visible, Class 1 would also be preferred but up to Class II - your natural blink reflex will prevent injury - should be permissible as it is considered eye-safe unless direct in-eye exposure is prolonged. For green visible, I would recommend blanket denial as they are more often Class 3b (not eye-safe) and for the devices using "offshore" green laser diodes, there's far too much unknown about the amount of IR leakage to be even remotely comfortable with them. In the case of red/IR, the very best way to ensure only devices meeting the above limits are permitted would be to first restrict anything that isn't manufactured by a reputable North American source (LDI, Insight, Streamlight, Crimson Trace, etc.). Beyond this, documentation should be provided by the user upon request proving the authenticity and safety (class ratings) of said laser otherwise, it's coming off the gun in full view of the game organizer before the player takes the field.

That said, it still does not relieve a laser user from employing some common sense with their device. If someone is acting like a jackass by constantly and continuously lasing faces, just like any other non-desirable activity (not calling hits, other cheating) would be brought to game control's attention, so should flagrant abuse of a laser device, and permission to use it summarily and permanently revoked.

Interesting topic and it has obviously provoked many responses and just as many different viewpoints. IMHO, it is ultimately up to the discretion of the game organizers to police this at their games as they see fit. What I have proposed above is merely a suggestion for some form of guideline or policy for those game hosts and players wishing to use lasers. It is by no means a "fait accompli" because it needs more refinement and tweaking, but I believe it speaks to both sides of the debate in a fair and equitable manner?


/Fly

[mmmken]

Another issue to consider if lasers are allowed to be used at a game:

We all try to avoid lazing above the neck (or at least I hope we all do), but what if the target is only showing their face through a window? The accepted practice is to just take the (gun) shot, but what about targeting with your eye-safe laser? Is it fine to do so in that case since your laser is eye-safe, or do you wait for another body part to be exposed just to be extra safe?

[leth1337]

aim next to his face. the tree he's behind, the side of the window he's poking out of, etc.

[bean]

Rampart is the only company bringing them in. It takes a 300 dollar license from the states per laser. Its included in their price. Honestly its not hard though if you didnt buy a LDI, Insight, Laser Max or other reputable class 1 laser from a proper retailer dont bring it to the game. Unless your 110% sure its eye safe and sold and manufactured and tested with proper specs. If you have to ask if its ok chances are its not. If its made in China for airsofters forget using it.


Also Gato you seem to have flip flopped on this because at one time you planned to get one and talked about it a lot.

[Derpystronk]

It takes a 300 dollar license from the states per laser.

My understanding of US export permits is 300 dollar fee per application not item, meaning you could have multiple items on one permit. Buy a couple of lasers at once and you save on the export fee. Something to consider for the gear whore with more money than brains. I could be wrong so someone should check before buying.

The one thing I am certain of is that paperwork will specifically state that those lasers are yours... Forever. So no group buys. Don't want the State Department laying an egg.

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by bean

Rampart is the only company bringing them in. It takes a 300 dollar license from the states per laser. Its included in their price. Honestly its not hard though if you didnt buy a LDI, Insight, Laser Max or other reputable class 1 laser from a proper retailer dont bring it to the game. Unless your 110% sure its eye safe and sold and manufactured and tested with proper specs. If you have to ask if its ok chances are its not. If its made in China for airsofters forget using it.


Also Gato you seem to have flip flopped on this because at one time you planned to get one and talked about it a lot.

Whoops. You may have mistaken Skeletor's post. He was referring to laser safe lenses for goggles being hard to find and on the ITAR list.

[bean]

foot in mouth

[Danke]

I think the real problem with laser lenses is that they're tinted. That means at night you'll see less.

The glasses also need to match the frequency of the laser. Easy to do in the military when it's all issued. Tougher at a game when folks are showing up with whatever.

And remember. You can't see the IR laser unless you have NVGs. So comparing that danger to a vehicle on the field only counts if you have some sort of invisible truck.

The easiest fix is all or none. If all the players have NVG goggles then consider lasers. If not it's not an option.

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by Danke

And remember. You can't see the IR laser unless you have NVGs. So comparing that danger to a vehicle on the field only counts if you have some sort of invisible truck.

I'll be sure to inform OPP that they can cut down on vehicle collisions and pedestrian hits if they ban those pesky invisible trucks from the roads.