New BB information. A must read.

[m102404]

When something breaks down into somethings safe enough for your kids to eat...it's bio-degradable

When something breaks down over time through use or lack of use...it's degrading.

When your mom drops you off at an airsoft game...and waits for you to play...that's degrading as well...(and don't think that other people don't notice and snicker behind your back...and if you're mom's hot, they're not snickering....)

Frack book learning...yay practical life skills!

[Doombringer]

Is there any actual bio-degradables BBs ? Something that actually works and is not a fraud ?

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Amoki

I think you have mistaken "biodegradable" for "degradable". Biodegradable material tends to refer to compounds that, once degraded via natural means, will turn into "friendly" organic compound which is then disposed of by bacteria etc.
(AND yay, good to know I didn't waste time doing biochemical engineering)

Not at all.. Biodegradeable refers only to being degraded into simpler compounds by the action of the natural environment. The relatve safety of those compounds is inferred ( often incorrectly) to be inert or beneficial by the prefix "Bio" but that is not really what it means.

Degradeable refers to compounds that can be broken down by means other than the effect of the natural environment. Pretty much everything is degradeable..to one degree or another. not everything is biodegradeable

but here we mince words... I'd like to know .. is there a "really" biodegradeable BB that breaks down and dissipates in the natural environment to innoctious compounds.. but also performs like a BB bastard .28 bb if there is and its shown true by independant study.. I'd buy them for outdoor play .. and require their use on my field. Until then Ill stick to "mostly inert" plastic bbs

[Drake]

I find it somewhat suspicious that the source of this shit-slinging is the one and only post on that blog.


And yeah, I fully expect Easy to pop up any minute now.

[appache]

we try just to drop some of those bio bb and 2 years later they are still at the same 7 place we place them,

[Mr.Shiney]

Okay, so I have been asked by a field owner to review some Bio BBs that he is bringing. I am curious about the lenght of time it would take to degrade.

What are some suggested testing methods to see just how long these will take to degrade versus other BBs?

What would forum members like to see included in a review??

[Amoki]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Not at all.. Biodegradeable refers only to being degraded into simpler compounds by the action of the natural environment. The relatve safety of those compounds is inferred ( often incorrectly) to be inert or beneficial by the prefix "Bio" but that is not really what it means.

Degradeable refers to compounds that can be broken down by means other than the effect of the natural environment. Pretty much everything is degradeable..to one degree or another. not everything is biodegradeable

I'll have to get back on your on this when I get around to recheck some material science reference text, but I am fairly certain biodegradable has a "environment-friendly" component to it since bio = life. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree, since in RL I have used far more bags of "normal" BBs then bio bbs so I don't care whether they are environmentally friendly

Okay, so I have been asked by a field owner to review some Bio BBs that he is bringing. I am curious about the lenght of time it would take to degrade.

What are some suggested testing methods to see just how long these will take to degrade versus other BBs?

What would forum members like to see included in a review??

The best testing is to subject them to real-life applied situation - which will mean degradation by natural fauna, UV, humidity and water.

If I were you, I'll spread 10-20 BBs out in a pegged quadrant (use some strings to mark and cordone) in a yard and let them be for a few weeks or months.

If you want to be super-pedantic weight them first and when you check on them again reweigh them.

[Azathoth]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

It would be good then if the so called "bio-BBs" were actually biodegradeable .. so far all I can see is a "marketing gambit" to capture market share..

So you would assume that private field owners only permitting BBB's is marketing? I understand that in the States, federal laws governing the locations at which Op Irene is played is what is driving the requirement of BioBBs.

Originally Posted by m102404

BioBB...non Biobb...Bioval, BBbastard, Madbull, KSC, etc, etc, etc...

Whatever...

Give me bags of stuff that shoot well and are priced appropriately, aside from that I could care less.

Bingo... It's part of the reason why I don't buy local.

[Forever_kaos]

Originally Posted by Mr.Shiney

Okay, so I have been asked by a field owner to review some Bio BBs that he is bringing. I am curious about the lenght of time it would take to degrade.

What are some suggested testing methods to see just how long these will take to degrade versus other BBs?

What would forum members like to see included in a review??

I do beleive a year ish, is the general rule of thumb.

I know Crunchmeister compared a regular BB to a bio one, left it out for the winter if I remember right.

[Danke]

From Madbull posted to Airsoftnews.eu

http://www.airsoft-news.eu/news.php?extend.3553

MadBull Airsoft: Bio BB scam? (not really) Apparently someone launched a rather nasty rumour that Madbull's Bio BBs are scam. Simon sent in this very long (click Read for full report) report in order to clarify things?

To all Airsoft players and customers,

About a week ago, a few Airsoft players show us an article: “The Madbull and G&G Bio BB Scam.” We don’t know who wrote this article but this article says MadBull BB are not Biodegradable and is a Scam.

To find out the truth, I fly back to Taiwan and meet the sales reprehensive on Aug. 3rd. We contact the Japan material supplier immediately and we have the following response email from Japan headquarter. As a BB manufacture, we have to choose the most reliable source of materials to make our BB. We choose Japan P-life to make our Bio BB.

If you have any further concern, please email to service@madbullairsoft.com We will try our best to provide you information needed. All test report are available per request.

he followings are Japan’s response:
First of all, we (“P-Life Japan Inc”) are the principal company of P-Life Oxo-Biodegradable Plastic Technology and are manufacturing “P-Life” degradable additive and supply throughout the world.

On behalf of P-Life Japan Inc, we would like to say thank you for your promotion of P-Life BBs in US and European Market with your tremendous efforts and enthusiasms.

According to Mr. Su Liang Gee (my partner) in Taiwan, he had a meeting with you regarding the article “The Madbull and G&G Bio BB Scam” published on the website of Pub Talk Press dated on August 3rd, 2009. It mentioned about the comparison of P-Life and PLA as the biodegradable materials utilized for BBs with very negative comments.

As a principal of P-Life Oxo-Biodegradable Plastic Technology, I would like to provide the comments regarding the argument mentioned below.

Please refer to the comments in red.

1. Madbull also claims there are no heavy metals in the bbs and has actually produced a TüV certificate. This is either false or Madbull's factory has failed somewhere.

The test data conducted by TüV is authentic. If they claim that it is not true, they should prove it by showing any technical data through the authorized testing body. Their comment is just an imaginary guess with no ground study. We condemn their comment which really insults the reputation of TüV as an internationally recognized testing body.

2. The Europeans have decided to officially condemn P-Life and all the so-called OXO Degrading compounds. These substances do not degrade and are toxic.

“The Europeans have decided to officially condemn P-Life and all the so-called Oxo…”

We do not know what they are talking about. As far as we know, our product has never been condemned by any Europeans at all. It is quite regrettable to hear this kind of groundless comment.

We have so far conducted various testing with regard to not only the degradability of the plastic products with P-Life but also the safety of our P-Life additive itself. So far, we confirmed the followings;

- P-Life products are complied with ASTM D3826, D5510, G154 certified by Hong Kong Productivity Council.

- The capability of P-Life products to comply with ASTM D6954 (Tier 2, biodegradation) Test has been demonstrated by the loss of molecular weight achieved after thermal/UV degradation, resulting in ultimate biodegradation of the material into CO2, Water and biomass (RAPRA 49063 Report in 2008 and CERI Report in 2005)

- The biodegradability of P-Life products has been demonstrated by the mineralization testing based on ISO14855 (JIS K6953) conducted by CERI JAPAN in 2005.

- The thorough ASTM D6954 test has been conducted by SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden (“SP”) and SP indicates that the trend of biodegradability for P-Life products is still increasing after 240days under both Soil and Compost Environment.

- “P-Life Additive” comply with the regulations of heavy metals under EU (EC Directive, Rohs), and US CONEG regulations.

3. Cobalt (see definition below) was identified in the mix. This heavy metal is not regulated in the EU, USA and Japan (but it is in Canada). This is the little trick (or loop hole) in P-Life. P-Life Additive never contains any amount of Cobalt or its compounds at all.

The heavy metals considered to be highly toxic and strictly limited to use are as follows;

“Hg (Mercury), Pb (Lead), Cd (Cadmium) ,Cr (Chromium)”

As mentioned “P-Life Additive” comply with the regulations of heavy metals under EU (EC Directive, Rohs), and US CONEG regulations. Please find the attached test reports for your reference

4. The UK Environmental Agency condemned OXO in the Scottish parliament in 2005. This decision constitutes a legal precedent in the EU and has influenced the Italian Antitrust Commission to heavily fine a chain store for using the statement "100% biodegradable" with an OXO supplemented product.

The above mentioned is not about P-Life and its relating products (finished products) at all. This is about our competitor’s product. The producer of the products should not say “100%” unless they can prove it officially. Sometimes, you might see this kind of exaggerated wording used for the degradable items in order to attract the consumers’ minds.

So, we rather advise you that you should use “Oxo-biodegradable” rather than just “biodegradable” since the Oxo-Biodegradable Plastics are materials that undergo a two-step degradation, initially by an oxidative process that is promoted by the inclusion of catalytic additives such as P-Life and subsequently by biodegradation.

On the other hand, the polymers such as PLA (Polylactic Acids), Starch base polymers are considered to be “Hydro-biodegradable” plastics, which are initiated by hydrolysis degradation and subsequently are biodegraded.

The attached are the test reports for evaluation of “Oxo-biodegradability of P-Life dosed plastic materials” conducted by the testing bodies such as CERI Japan and SP Technical Research Institute of Sweden, who are our research partner in Europe, are in the process of evaluating P-Life dosed Plastics according to ASTM D6954 guideline.

5. PLA will only biodegrade in the conditions set for an Industrial Compost facility and virtually no G&G made PLA bbs go to that kind of facility since no game fields we know of actually spend the time and financial resources to pick up bbs that have been fired into the environment and send them to an Industrial Compost facility.

The above mentioned is true that PLA merely degrades in the very limited condition which is under the controlled composting environment (high moisture with an elevated temperature like 60C). Therefore, it is not realistic that BBs made with PLA will be collected and sent them to the compost facility after shooting them.

On the other hand, the Oxo-Biodegradable plastic products are degrading under the natural environment as long as they can undergo the oxidative reaction enhanced by P-Life additive. Thus, this is one of the advantages to use P-Life BBs rather than using PLA base BBs since the products are shot in the outdoor environments such as hills, mountains etc where we can expect the oxidative degradation by using plenty of oxygen, heat and sun-shines.

We hope that you will find the comments above helpful for you to further develop the degradable BBs markets in both US and Europe. Through your aggressive marketing in US and Europe, if you have any issues, obstacles we have to tackle with, please let us know anytime.

We are truly looking forward to building up a fruitful business relationship with you in very close future.


Thank you & Best Regards,


************************************************** ****

P-Life Japan Inc.

ISAO TOYAMA

[Drake]

Interesting how they were able to defend themselves based on solid statements instead of having to sling shit at their competitors.

[venture]

Interesting response. What is in bioval's bbs? They are fully accepted in Europe as biodegradeable.

[Amos]

I'm willing to bet this whole thing started with a Bioval employee/owner/seller/fanboy lol

[mcguyver]

Easy now, Amos.

[venture]

I am not a bioval fanboi/employee, but they have this going for them:
http://www.biovalbbb.eu/certificates.html

I have never used bioval, but if biodegradeable is what we should do then bioval would be the one with proof of actually being biodegradeable.