G&P....are they that good???

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

KWA has been big on the marketing bit claiming their guns are "lipo ready" which is essentially a high-RoF, high-discharge, high-reliability claim.. However, from what I have seen they're not correcting for AoE, not using MOSFETs, or any of that stuff. This is annoying, especially since the mag-tickling masses that you refer to seem to be snapping this sort of product up and thinking they're good to go. I'd really like to see some more hardass testing and judgement laid down by the airsoft review crowd...

I wouldn't put my money on that I've seen the so called LiPo ready AEGs gone tits up but again who knows maybe sooner or later we will all realise that these company are into it for not only the love of the game but for profit and some of us will learn that there are no such thing as a indestructable AEGs. I've been using G&P for quite sometime now, I have their very first M4 which was Godsent compared to the CA full assembled aeg but I'm still lost for words as to why they are still using those god awfull spur gear

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by wind_comm

50rps@450fps - YouTube

I'm pretty sure his build will last longer than any PTW as well =)

he also did 700@35, but the springs wore out too quickly and wouldn't hold 700fps.


my personal M4 shoots at 420-ish fps and 30-ish rps, and it's still a work in progress.
as is, I could probably run down every battery I have (including my 11.1v 40c (50 burst) battery _AND_ my 9.6v 5000mah battery) and there would be next to no wear on anything.

the only way he can achieve that is with light bb .10 or .12 and I highly doubt that it's a V2, when I was playing with the polarstar system I managed a 488fps with bastard .66 and thats pushing the system to a limit the fastest i got on a AEG was 462fps with PDI 360% spring, .20bb/ and 12V battery pack back in 91/92 (quite a few old members of this board can atest to that) and that lasted three games before a fully modified SS Gearbox went tits up

Ok enough side tracking BRSM!

[wind_comm]

Originally Posted by wildcard

the only way he can achieve that is with light bb .10 or .12 and I highly doubt that it's a V2, when I was playing with the polarstar system I managed a 488fps with bastard .66 and thats pushing the system to a limit the fastest i got on a AEG was 462fps with PDI 360% spring, .20bb/ and 12V battery pack back in 91/92 (quite a few old members of this board can atest to that) and that lasted three games before a fully modified SS Gearbox went tits up

Ok enough side tracking BRSM!

by that logic my m120-powered rifle must be witchcraft because it does 700fps with .12g bbs and can dump 14.8v (or 18.5v with a bigger fuse) lipos without breaking.

if you're only getting 460 in an aeg and 488fps with a p*, you're not trying hard enough:
That crack is addictive......... - YouTube




back on topic:
g&p guns are fantastic. they do need work out of the box, but for tinkerers it doesn't really matter because we (I) can fix a gearbox, but I don't have the facilities to make my own receivers.

maybe only $100 of parts (gears, piston, mosfet, sorbo pad), a little effort put into learning (reshimming via bevel method), and your shiny (or matte) new g&p will last longer than most people are interested in running around with a bunch of other fat dudes in a field.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by wind_comm

by that logic my m120-powered rifle must be witchcraft because it does 700fps with .12g bbs and can dump 14.8v (or 18.5v with a bigger fuse) lipos without breaking.

if you're only getting 460 in an aeg and 488fps with a p*, you're not trying hard enough:
That crack is addictive......... - YouTube




back on topic:
g&p guns are fantastic. they do need work out of the box, but for tinkerers it doesn't really matter because we (I) can fix a gearbox, but I don't have the facilities to make my own receivers.

maybe only $100 of parts (gears, piston, mosfet, sorbo pad), a little effort put into learning (reshimming via bevel method), and your shiny (or matte) new g&p will last longer than most people are interested in running around with a bunch of other fat dudes in a field.

you need to look at my post again the 480+FPS with the polarstar is with a .66 BB bastard not a .20 or .25 The AEG is accomplished with a PDI 360% spring (= to a M170+) not a M120 and you do realise that a .12 bb isn't going to travel as far as you think it will especially with a high power setup and I would like to see that gamed regularly over a season but with a .20 or .25 not a .12

[wind_comm]

Originally Posted by wildcard

you need to look at my post again the 480+FPS with the polarstar is with a .66 BB bastard not a .20 or .25 and you do realise that a .12 bb isn't going to travel as far as you think it will especially with a high power setup and I would like to see that gamed regularly over a season but with a .20 or .25 not a .12

I've read your posts thoroughly. there's no reason to look down on somebody who doesn't have a small placard under their name/didn't have access to the internet 10 years ago, or assume that they are 14.

the weight of a BB is next to irrelevant in a p*. given the correct settings, air rig and a proper length barrel, the fps of a .2 and a .66 will be the same.

similar to overvoluming a short barrelled AEG, there are a few people who do it so that they chrono at the field limit (usually indoors, so 350 or so) with .2g, but they use .28/.30+, and the end result is that the heavier round will still have a similar fps to the .2

given that a p* effectively has unlimited volume (unlike an aeg), you're simply not setting it correctly, or your barrel isn't long enough to allow enough gas expansion to accelerate the round properly.

and of course .12 won't do sh*t. I'm just saying, if you believe that HS5's 700@35 or 1200fps rifles were done with .12g rounds, then it's not nearly as difficult as I think it is because my rifle will do that as well. they're also definitely M4s.

I'd also like to see my rifle gamed over a season or more without maintenance on .28-.32 rounds, because it should have about 250 feet of range (if I did my r-hop install correctly this time). unfortunately, it wasn't finished until last month and will likely not be fielded for a long time because a: I'm broke and b: chronic back pain.

edit: also if it takes an m170 to get 460fps, you've got a SIGNIFICANT air leak. that should only take an m130.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by wind_comm

I've read your posts thoroughly. there's no reason to look down on somebody who doesn't have a small placard under their name/didn't have access to the internet 10 years ago, or assume that they are 14.

the weight of a BB is next to irrelevant in a p*. given the correct settings, air rig and a proper length barrel, the fps of a .2 and a .66 will be the same.

similar to overvoluming a short barrelled AEG, there are a few people who do it so that they chrono at the field limit (usually indoors, so 350 or so) with .2g, but they use .28/.30+, and the end result is that the heavier round will still have a similar fps to the .2

given that a p* effectively has unlimited volume (unlike an aeg), you're simply not setting it correctly, or your barrel isn't long enough to allow enough gas expansion to accelerate the round properly.

and of course .12 won't do sh*t. I'm just saying, if you believe that HS5's 700@35 or 1200fps rifles were done with .12g rounds, then it's not nearly as difficult as I think it is because my rifle will do that as well. they're also definitely M4s.

I'd also like to see my rifle gamed over a season or more without maintenance on .28-.32 rounds, because it should have about 250 feet of range (if I did my r-hop install correctly this time). unfortunately, it wasn't finished until last month and will likely not be fielded for a long time because a: I'm broke and b: chronic back pain.

edit: also if it takes an m170 to get 460fps, you've got a SIGNIFICANT air leak. that should only take an m130.

I was not looking down on anyone, you mention your rifle shooting 700fps with.12 bb after your post of the you tube video that featured something shooting 500+fps to me it is irrelevant or unfair comparison to the topic that was being discussed and I'm pretty sure you Alberta boys don't play with .12 ammo. The Polarstar set up was on my M82A1 with a custom 780mm inner ported barrel, if anything the airseal was not an issue as it was attached direct to the nozzle and anything over 700mm inner barrel you will need to get a more powerful power source or port the barrel (It was done at 210psi well over the 120psi limit that teh manufacturer recommend). The M170 spring was an attempt to create the most powerful AEG of the time (91/92), at that time the average was 435fps with .25bb this rifle was in fact a TM M4 base project with a PSG1 barrel and a .50BMG flashhider made by Tgoode himself, at the time we were experimenting and did not realise the importance of barrelsuck and other factors. It was a interesting attempt at customization during the very early stage of airsoft technology if you want to call it, it worked well in single shot but at full auto the bb was hitting each other. at first we were doubtfull that the battery or the piston will ever be able to pull that spring (360% PDI is a PSG1 spec'd spring)

[wind_comm]

Originally Posted by wildcard

I was not looking down on anyone, you mention your rifle shooting 700fps with.12 bb after your post of the you tube video that featured something shooting 500+fps to me it is irrelevant or unfair comparison to the topic that was being discussed and I'm pretty sure you Alberta boys don't play with .12 ammo. The Polarstar set up was on my M82A1 with a custom 780mm inner ported barrel, if anything the airseal was not an issue as it was attached direct to the nozzle and anything over 700mm inner barrel you will need to get a more powerful power source or port the barrel (It was done at 210psi well over the 120psi limit that teh manufacturer recommend). The M170 spring was an attempt to create the most powerful AEG of the time (91/92), at that time the average was 435fps with .25bb this rifle was in fact a TM M4 base project with a PSG1 barrel and a .50BMG flashhider made by Tgoode himself, at the time we were experimenting and did not realise the importance of barrelsuck and other factors. It was a interesting attempt at customization during the very early stage of airsoft technology if you want to call it, it worked well in single shot but at full auto the bb was hitting each other. at first we were doubtfull that the battery or the piston will ever be able to pull that spring (360% PDI is a PSG1 spec'd spring)

my quip about .12g rounds was clearly meant as comedy.

I'm not an expert on p* guns, but with a setup like that you should be able to get nearly 800fps. unfortunately, ASM is currently down so I wouldn't be able to point you at somebody more knowledgeable.

also, I can respect tinkering/experimenting at an early stage of technology. all the issues you've described would be cake to fix nowadays, because other people kept pushing the limits long after you and everybody else settled into a comfort zone.

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by wind_comm

my quip about .12g rounds was clearly meant as comedy.

I'm not an expert on p* guns, but with a setup like that you should be able to get nearly 800fps. unfortunately, ASM is currently down so I wouldn't be able to point you at somebody more knowledgeable.

also, I can respect tinkering/experimenting at an early stage of technology. all the issues you've described would be cake to fix nowadays, because other people kept pushing the limits long after you and everybody else settled into a comfort zone.

With the .25 at the same psi it was actually shooting a respectable 589 FPS, the only downside was the mag could not feed it fast enough and it caused massive chopping, with the .66 the projectile was heavy enough but the mag spring would not feedteh rig properly.

[wind_comm]

you definitely need to adjust the fcu settings, not just the rig psi.

[lurkingknight]

an honorable mention from maciekA.... it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (*´ω`*)

I personally don't think 30-35 rps is particularly hard to acheive.. both my primaries sit at 30-33 rps, and they are limited to more rps due to the simple fact that I have heavy piston assemblies. To increase it further, I would have to look at dropping more weight off the assembly by customizing the piston bodies. (swiss cheesing)

This probably would increase the battery efficiency as well.. but the formula is not hard and quite affordable before anyone says systemasystema.

in reality there are only 3 major parts you really need to worry about to approach the 30 rps mark. a 16:1 or lower gearset... a neodymium magnet motor (shs, lonex, jg blue, etc) and an 11.1v lipo with at least 20c discharge... more C = more rps. By my count if you shop the right places, should cost you <100$ before shipping. I'm not counting a mosfet because a simple polyfuse fet is something I believe should come in EVERY factory gun. It just doesn't make sense not to... it's another 10-15$ in parts that will stop the need to fix burned out or melted trigger contacts.

The rest is really taking your time to shim and a 5$ piece of sorbo. There are guys that use non metal rack pistons to achieve 30 rps reliably, and it all comes down to your AoE adjustment. If you really wanted to be comfortable, you could get an shs 15 tooth piston for another 10$ and do the dremel or file work yourself to get it down to 14 teeth.

There's no secret, just doing the research on the reputable tech sites out there will give you the answers you need and then taking the time to set up.

I keep wanting to open up another one of my guns and see how far I can push my own limits and ability to build something super stupid. I have a bunch of reliable guns under my bench just waiting to play, and I'd rather play than tinker.

But I'm extremely confident I can get my p90 to 32 maybe 33 rps with some more work, and my g36 to 40.. it's sitting at 33 right now... and the only thing I would need to do is some finer sanding/filing work and weight reduction on the piston body... maybe switch out to a lighter piston head. I think there's guys out there with a piston assembly 1/3 the weight of mine. That's just insanity. I'm not that interested in eeking out that last 5-10% of performance.

I should open up the gearbox I bought off asm and show you guys the swiss cheesed piston the tech put in there... there's nothing left of it o_o

[Stealth]

Back on topic.

Yes I've noticed everything that HKGhost and Maciek has mentioned about G&P mechboxes.

My personal gripes (may also be highlighting what the fine gentlemen above have already said)
* Silicone wiring that has very thick jackets, making it very hard to snake through tight spaces. Also strips very easily
* The ring terminals - forces you to use a G&P motor, which are all junk. (yes even their M170 motors)
* Factory shimming is often too loose
* Gears tend to just explode for no reason
* M120 "high-speed" motors in 400fps guns - why?
* Upper and lower receivers not fitting correctly - this happened on a gun that Huang (airsoftdepot) brought in. There's about a .75mm gap between the upper and lower. Yeah...
* G&P receiver threads - seriously. What the fuck?? Why can't they just use normal AEG threading like the rest of the airsoft world?
* G&P outer barrels - 14mm CLOCKWISE. WHY?

I don't buy G&P guns anymore, I just buy their bodies, and only the ones that G&P make (Magpul or their MUR-1 upper). Otherwise I find myself turning to VFC.

[Shaner]

lurkingknight, you mentioned "reputable tech sites"...which ones do you recommend?

[Warlock]

G&P are good quality M4 for the price but I prefer Classic Army Proline X-series or VFC (DX).

[Stealth]

Originally Posted by Shaner

lurkingknight, you mentioned "reputable tech sites"...which ones do you recommend?

Airsoft Mechanics.

Although we seem to have built up quite a repertoire of information on here lately as well. This thread has a PLETHORA of information already in it.

[lurkingknight]

I live on the forums of airsoftmechanics.com Everything I've learned about teching since I started playing last year is pretty much entirely from that site, and I'm sure the most if not all of the knowledgeable techheads that have spoken up in this thread have been lurking there for quite some time.