Measuring IR laser output?

[Reignman]

You Imagine, or you know? I mean I can pull things from my ass as well if you like.

Some companies actually care about their products and put a lot of time and effort into them.

The G&P Dbal is an amazing little box and is no slouch.

I'm not here to bicker over who's QC is better. I just need some facts on this IR laser.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by Reignman

You Imagine, or you know? I mean I can pull things from my ass as well if you like.

Some companies actually care about their products and put a lot of time and effort into them.

The G&P Dbal is an amazing little box and is no slouch.

I'm not here to bicker over who's QC is better. I just need some facts on this IR laser.

I think what people are trying to say is that because these devices are made in China, for a market that does not necessarily have any quality control standards. There is a huge difference between Apple bringing down the wrath of the late Steve Jobs because Foxconn tried cutting corners and between an Airsoft manufacturer wanting to save some money on is essentially a novelty product and having no idea that it makes the device more dangerous. They might be buying bargain bin diodes (which there is an abundance of) or they might be buying quality diodes to make a quality product. We have no idea if either is the case.

We also have the problem that G&P has not stated their goal is to create an eye safe laser box.

Many IR laser diodes come from the need to make Green lasers. To get a green laser you need to have a significantly more powerful IR laser and do some weird crap with crystals and... I don't hang out on laser forums. All I know is that to get an output of something in the range of a 5-10 mw Green laser, you need to pump out 30-50mw of IR. While using those diodes in their product is still a possibility, it's also unlikely. There are also a number of readily accessible IR diodes ranging from 1mw and way up. Simple turning over of rocks on Alibaba and eBay show that. Class 1 IR laser diodes are hard as hell to find.

Secondly, the class 1 laser phenomena is a relatively new thing in the United States. They flooded the market ever since PEQ-15's started being confiscated from people. While the general knowledge did exist for companies it was not public knowledge to most American shooters until companies started offering Class 1 laser products to the civi market. Many shooters were either using PEQ's(using them on low power mode to conserve battery) or China lasers they picked up. The likelihood of G&P having the knowledge and foresight to make the eye safe distinction between visible and IR lasers is very unlikely since this product existed before a time where it was plastered over every shooting website. There are still many people who believe a 5mw IR laser is eye safe because a red one at that output is.

What this means is that there are enough circumstances where there is a very good likelihood these devices are unsafe. This is not a failure on G&P's part and they could still very well stand by their product if this information is certified and made public. They created a high quality, working replica. It has an IR Laser, IR Illuminator, and a Visible laser - all functioning with a low failure rate.

My problem with this unit has been the lack of knowledge on the subject. Back when I was getting into Night Vision I had plans to purchase this unit not knowing the dangers of IR laser exposure. Luckily for me I was educated by other members of the community and thankful for it. With more and more people getting into the night vision game I see this device popping up more and more. If you want to use cheap China eyepro and risk your eyes? Fine. Awesome. Thats your risk, your fault if you get injured. If you want to use a device that might have the potential to cause other person harm and they would have absolutely no idea that it happened or even when? That sucks.

I won't be allowing this device at any of my events or events I have any sort of involvement in organizing until there have been thorough tests and a statement from G&P they use a consistent, reliable source for their diodes. Until G&P makes a version that they state is eye safe and stating the exact metrics of the unit I will feel uneasy every time I see one on the field.

If you have 3 grand to blow on a PVS-14 you have 500 bucks to blow getting something that is safe for the people on the receiving end of your invisible dot. Don't cheap out especially since you won't be the one with vision loss.

[Reignman]

Thanks for your opinion.

I wouldn't consider spending 200$ on an item "cheaping out." To some that is a good chunk of change. If this laser is eye safe I'd consider it a great product for people in the airsoft community as they don't have to spend thousands of dollars and keep money in their pockets. However if it's not that's totally fine. I probly won't hear back from the Queens Prof until monday anyway.

[Derpystronk]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Thanks ever so much for your opinion.

I wouldn't consider spending 200$ on an item "cheaping out." To some that is a good chunk of change. If this laser is eye safe I'd consider it a great product for people in the airsoft community as they don't have to spend thousands of dollars and keep money in their pockets. However if it's not that's totally fine. I probly won't hear back from the Queens Prof until monday anyway.

When you are subjecting someone else to the risk of permanent eye damage, yes, it is cheaping out. I have taken damage on my eye because someone hit me at with a cheap China laser who just didn't know any better. He was the one who bought the unit and I'm the one with a dot in my vision. Thankfully it's practically gone and only noticeable under certain conditions now but it might very well be there for the rest of my life. It also could have been much worse.

As far as the DBAL goes I'm just trying to expand alittle bit on what Shelled said in regards to bad QC, adding on additional factors that would probably make this unit not safe or reliably so. If this unit passes, how many more do we need to test before we come to the conclusion that they are reliably eye safe and the units do not need to be examined on a case by case basis? Is it just the one or forty?

As for the money in pocket comment, there are cheaper solutions to an IR Laser that allow you to be effective at night. Sightmark has a night vision compatible reflex sight - with an integrated eye safe red laser - for 150-200 bucks. Right in the exact same price range and it has the added benefit of not injuring people.

[Viperfish]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Thanks for your opinion.

I wouldn't consider spending 200$ on an item "cheaping out." To some that is a good chunk of change. If this laser is eye safe I'd consider it a great product for people in the airsoft community as they don't have to spend thousands of dollars and keep money in their pockets. However if it's not that's totally fine. I probly won't hear back from the Queens Prof until monday anyway.

the only thing is like others have said is, if it turns out to be eye safe that means your laser is eye safe. everyone with one would also have to get it tested.

So it wouldn't really make it a great product for the community as everyone would have to go and get theres tested as well.

as it stands the safe bet is to get an otal or a real dbal or in the case of several of us, get a real military one (peq 2, paq 4, peq 15, peq 16)

it may cost more but its well worth the investment. 500 for a usable laser is alot better then 200 for a gamble that may or may not be usable.

id be interested in seeing the test results on your though.

[frackz]

does this eye safe fair the same for IR Lights and flashlights?

I have a gnp dbal but never have used the laser but i use the IR flashlight on it.

i also have stand alone IR flashlights

[Reignman]

Ir flash lights are fine dude. It's just the IR laser that's harmful if it's over powered.

[Oborous]

Reignman,

I suggest you read Deltastones post again, he gives good information.

In Edmonton we do not allow anything but red lasers, for Deltastones post, the crystal that he's talking about is a frequency doubler with IR filter; the chinese clones use cheap doublers that are inefficient and improperly heat sinked, so they may end up melting the IR filter, and like DS mentions and other mentions, a replica device will be made as cheap as possible. The replica manufacturers have already driven the price down on these IR laser diodes for the green lasers, but due to their inefficiency they're much more powerful. They can buy these diodes for pennies due to their bulk pricing and if they can use them in another product, all the more savings to them.

$200 -is- cheaping out when you're dealing with something that can damage peoples eyes. You're only going to be using that IR laser/ IR flashlight in the dark, where peoples eyes will be dilated wide.

What I'm trying to say is do not buy your DBAL device, go and purchase a good IR flashlight. There is a point that doing an impression is OK, but for something like this it becomes dangerous to other people. If it's dark out, you cannot guarantee that you don't accidentally flip the switch to the IR laser.

Please consider the potential harm to your fellow players. There are devices out there that just aren't safe or appropriate to use in airsoft games. If you were LEO and using airsoft for training in a non-ballistically rated shoothouse, fill your boots; but not in this case.

[Reignman]

I'm ok thanks. I've read it.

200$ isn't cheaping out if it's safe.

Perhaps you have overlooked what I am trying to do here. Maybe you should read my post.

I want to find out if this is safe or not to use. I am not using the IR currently because I don't know how strong it is. I want to get it tested to see because I can't find any documentation on it.

We can play the "what if scenarios" for pretty much anything, I just don't want to play them. I deal with enough of them at work.

I know the dangers, which is why I don't use the IR. I don't need you preaching to me the dangers.

Thanks for your input.

I'll let people know what I find out from Queen's. Other than that I'm done with this topic until then.

[Cobrajr122]

Originally Posted by Oborous

...for Deltastones post, the crystal that he's talking about is a frequency doubler with IR filter; the chinese clones use cheap doublers that are inefficient and improperly heat sinked, so they may end up melting the IR filter...

...What I'm trying to say is do not buy your DBAL device, go and purchase a good IR flashlight...

The frequency doubling crystal/IR filter has nothing to do with this situation, they are not in use for the dbal...

We are trying to use lasers here, a flashlight is not useful at all as a replacement, especially when we are already running Gen 3 nods, even in EXTREMELY low light situations we can still see just fine.

[c3sk]

This isn't rocket science. Does it come with a safety data sheet/certificate? Does it meet the regulatory standards for Canada?

If not, don't fucking use it.

Common sense people.

[Cobrajr122]

There is nothing wrong with getting it tested. If it can be proven safe then its good to go, if not, just keep on not using it.

[Reignman]

lol...This thread got derailed hardcore. Everoyne sheath their dicks, I'm not here to wave mine around.

[mmmken]

Originally Posted by Reignman

lol...This thread got derailed hardcore. Everoyne sheath their dicks, I'm not here to wave mine around.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you find from the lab tests. Did you have to pay for the results, and if so - how much? I may have something to be tested as well. Are you just looking to measure how many mW the laser outputs or what?

If its the former, I'm not an expert like some others here, but I'm sure it's way above eye safe limits. I've seen a 0.5mW IR laser compared to the G&P DBAL, and the DBAL was much, much brighter (as well as less sharp). If I recall correctly, 0.5mW is the rated limit to be "eye-safe".

.. but please do get back to us with your findings.

[c3sk]

Visible lasers cannot exceed 5mW (Typical red lasers run below 5mW)
IR Lasers cannot exceed 600uw (0.6mW) (Most military IR laser designators have a "training" mode which allows eyesafe use of the device for force on force - 0.6mW (Class 1))

Civilian IR Lasers also run at 0.6mW (Class I)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_pointer#Eye_injury

Supposedly G&P Dbal's use Chinese 808nm modules which push 5mW... that's 4.4mW over the legal eyesafe limit. z0ng has a light/laser meter specifically designed for testing laser equipment over 800nm, so if anyone wants to swing by TTAC one night with one of these - I would be interested in seeing what the actual output of it is.

Regardless of speculation on what these Chinese knockoff dbal's run.. If it doesn't have FDA or Health Services Canada regulatory documentation, then it is illegal and potentially harmful to use in this Country, especially on people.

Would you feel comfortable using this device on your friends? I wouldn't.