systema vs guarder clear: hop up
 

Hello ASC,

In my ICS m4 I'm currently using a modify sp110 spring and am getting around 370-390 fps and am wondering wich of the above hop up rubbers would give me the best performance.

Thanks.

oh god... not again...

I'll begin this by saying Systema or Prometheus Soft.

now just bring out the pop corn and watch me and other gun docs duke it out.

To be honest I'm not a fan of systema rubbers..

For the "Cheap" category of hop-up rubbers I'd suggest Guarder Clear over a systema

Edit: However.. the higher FPS will wear a guarder clear out fairly quickly.. and I don't really like the guarder black rubbers.


lol firefly medium

Amos,
I was planning on bying a firefly but I decided against it because I'm usig an SCS and I hear they don't work together?

systema makes crap hop rubbers, get the guarder BLACK rubber.
The guarder clear is too soft to be used above 350fps

Nope, Firefly rubbers have built in internal nubbins that make 2 very solid contact point on the BB whereas normal rubbers have one solid bump that makes a single contact point.

With the SCS and the contact point shaved off, it contacts the BB in many more ways..

I haven't done a direct comparison of SCS vs Firefly yet... but I know the SCS will give you results and it is cheaper than the firefly

Thanks alot guys. I'm thinking promy soft with SCS?

I've had bad luck with prometheus rubbers too, unfinished edges

And so you would reccomend wich rubber?

+1

Almost all of them had some molding scraps on the edge... need to carefully remove it before the thing is usable.

But after that, it works like a charm.

I vote Prometheus still. Purple for your use.

sorry thunder didn't see that you said guarder black...

promy soft (i.e.: purple i believe) plus SCS should do the trick. that is the feedback i have been getting as well. as for the promy incident, it may have just been the batch. its not like they couldn't be made usable either, just shave off the excess.

ASIAN SPECIAL POWERS UNITE!

Systema on the cheap end

Prometheus on the more pricey end. The Systema's wear out very quickly ESPECIALLY if you are using a SCS unit.

Some people say that the guarder clear (soft only) is alright.

IF YOU ARE USING SCS Prometheus soft or Guarder Clear (cheap). This is what is suggested on filairsoft.

I've done a direct shooting comparison between the Firefly (w prommy hard nub) and a SCS enabled Prometheus rubber. Firefly rubber is very poor in comparison.

GUARDER BLACK DAMNIT
It's what I use in all the AEG's I build, they're like 5$ and just as good as the prometheus and systema rubbers, they last forever and the only thing better is a firefly

chilax man.

just curious,

do you ever wash your hop up rubbers?

I tried doing that once. Then I shot 15k through the gun. and did another clean. This time i shot a bag of cleaned BB's through the rubber. I think you get Better results from cleaning your BB's over the rubber.

remember, shooting clean BB will give you better accuracy by itself.

this also depends on what brand rubber you are using and how much the hop up rubber has absorbed grease/oil.

if there's too much grease/oil, wash it first, and then shoot clean BBs. This will shoot out the remaining grease out of the rubber overtime with exertion of pressure.

if it's a new hop up rubber, just wash it. No need to shoot clean BBs, it's already as clean as it gets after you wash it. Shooting clean BBs won't really help but ya.

When I shoot Clean BB's I notice a huge difference in how clean/filthy the barrel is after. Normally after a game or 5k of plinking the barrel is pretty dirty when using unwashed BB's.

With washed BB's their is barely any gunk inside the barrel.

You are right about the brand of hopup rubber. Different companies use different materials. Some use synthetic RUBBER, other high end rubbers are made of genuine rubber (or a higher ratio of genuine to synthetic) while the low end stuff can be almost anything. I've seen some china brand "rubbers" that had the texture, and finish, and held it's shape like it was made of the same plastic as the heavy duty garbage bags.

I don't see any harm in washing the rubber, and I do notice a change in how sensitive the hopup dial can be. With SCS, Washed BB, and washed rubber it's pretty stupid how much lift you can give a BB.

I really like the Guarder Black for 360+fps guns and Guarder Clear for everything.

I've had phenomenal results with Guarder Clear on 390-420 rifles...just jaw dropping. But they probably won't last long...dunno, I'm into my guns so often that I just change it out if it's the least bit worn...or do it anyways as a cheap preventative thing. I haven't personally worn one out, but it'd be fair to say that I've never shot one until it wore out either. For the cruise missle like range and predictability of some setups...I'd gladly drop in a new rubber for each game if that's what it'd take to have that clutch shot confidence in your setup (i.e. I've just spent a g-note on a rifle,gear and kit, time/expense for the game...I want that shot to count when I make it...and the piddly cost of a hopup rubber is inconsequential, whatever works well enough is good enough). I've never shot out a hopup rubber in a single game.

On a SAW or high volume/ROF gun...I'd stick in a guarder black for durability.

I don't wash BBs...or rubbers...or slip on no-lint/sterile gloves when I grab a handful of bbs from the bag to fill my loader. I'm sure a pristine "clean" system is better...for me it's just not practical for a lot of the mil-sims/games. Usually everthing is covered in mud/swamp...or else dusty.

Stalker loves the Guarder Clear. :)

Is it necessary to upgrade the hopup if you mainly play cqb?

Systema make shit hopup rubbers. Full stop. There's no arguing this. Their rubbers are poor quality.

Although intended for lower FPS applications, I tend to use the Guarder Clear on everything up to about 380 fps. Above that, they tend to be too soft to apply enough hop. I have them in all my guns, and anyone who's fired any of my guns will tell you they're tack drivers with insane range.

depends what your ranges are.

If there's places that are 100+ feet... you should think about a cheap hop-up rubber upgrade. (Just the rubber though, not the chamber)

I disagree, Their is no reason to upgrade your rubber for a style of play CQB vs field. A rubber is a rubber is a rubber. If it shoots good at long range, it will likely shoot good at short. If your CQB gun has a very high ROF you may be concerned about a higher rate of wear on your hopup rubber.

Hopup chambers are an excellent upgrade to any gun with a 2pc plastic or metal hopup chamber. Better chambers feed better, have better airseal. If you have a 2 pc in a cqb gun then it's ok. But for a field gun where you are going to be making many 150+ ft shots I recommend 2 pc.

If his CQB place is like my local CQB place the furthest distance you engage people at is probably around 30 feet (there are some places where it goes out to about 80 or so, but hardly anyone goes there)

There's absolutely no reason to NEED upgrade your hop-up unit for CLOSE Cqb. If people are a CQB ONLY player there's no reason for them to tune their gun to far ranges.

Sorry...maybe lunch has sucked all the blood out of my brain...but what the hell are you talking about in your second paragraph? What type of gun? Do you mean you switch a 1 piece metal hopup (what gun?) to a 2 piece for outdoors....how?

IMHO...I wouldn't sweat changing out the hopup rubber for indoor CQB...as long as your rubber isn't damaged and is at least putting on enough hopup to get the BB far enough out. CQB is CLOSE quarters battle...if you're sniping away all evening at 100+ft with a little MP5K, you should grab some buddies and move up.

guys, I make 200feet shots consistently and their are all headshots(25cm grouping). That's with a 400FPS AEG with prometheus soft washed hop up rubber(And other accuracy upgrades). The distance is properly measured. I even have pictorial evidence from my VSR that does 1.5cm at 40feet.

everyone all just SAY "oh i got phenomenal results... ugh jizz" and no pictorial evidence of tests or anything of the sort. Only word of the mouth and "ya i saw it! it was like sooooo accurate", with no evidence. only talk and no walk.

Ok...LOL :D It's all talk. You got everyone, we're all full of shit. Next time we'll stop the mil-sim and get out the field tape measure. HAHAHAHAHA!

BTW...I hope the next post you make is the video of you making that 200ft headshot and then (uncut) measuring it out, then get the premier of BC to notarize it please, because I won't take the camera guy at his word either, he might have altered the film. [HEAVY SARCASM...I could care less in reality if you have a vid of it or not]

Now...don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that you're a liar or "only talk and no walk". You've got a nice pic of a tiny little cluster at 40ft. Good for you and I'm sure that all your washing and scrubbing pays off for you. That's awesome, congrats. I'm sure everyone can make a target like that... however...without witnessing and standardized testing conditions...without an impartial review of the measurements and test parameters...everyone has to take your results, ass-orgasmic or not, at your word. (I've shot a fair bit of target....and nobody gets to mail in their scores of a group they shot on their own to be scored in a competition). Anyone could shoot a group at 5ft, write 40ft on it with a marker and say "there ya go"...(note: Again, I am not calling you a liar, I am just a bit put off with your holier-than-thou comment that everyone who can't/won't produce a documentary of their shots is full of shit)

Likewise...when others say they've gotten great results off of other things...it doesn't automatically mean that they're blowing bullshit in your ear. To think otherwise is just plain fucking rude.

Tys

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3492/picture002fq8.jpg

i feel like a broken record these days

Didn't ask for a pic of a paper target. Pfft...who's to say that you shot that 42ft and not 10ft and just wrote 42ft on it? Who's to say that's even your gun or your target? (again...this is sarcasm for the point of making a point, reference my last post for clarification...I edited it).

...anyways where's the film documentary of the 200ft headshot cluster group?

.... 42 feet is nothing...

That's barely enough space for the hop-up to even begin working..

Try doing the same test out-doors at 100 feet, I be you wont get anywhere near proportional results :) (3cm X 3.2cm group)

O and in the video don't have someone hiding near the target shooting at it while you are 200ft away.

you win champs, im a phony.

Not to put you down, Sladfin, but using my KSC G17, I can consistently get the same results at about 25 feet, getting all my shots in a space about the size of a dime. Adding 15 feet to that for a rifle, particularly a sniper rifle, isn't really saying a lot. While it shows good consistency of the gun, it really doesn't demonstrate what the gun will do in a real application - a 100+ ft shot. And as Amos pointed out, 40 feet is nothing. The hopup effect doesn't even have time to kick in at that distance.

NO! You missed the (or perhaps just my) point completely.

I am not disputing your results (others may agree or dispute). But I am saying that your attitude that anyone who says they got good/great results a different way without photo/documentary/cosigned "proof" is full of hot air is really, really shitty and insulting. It's narrow minded and actually takes away from your "argument"/case that it's a good thing to wash your stuff.

No one disputed that having clean/dry BBs...and clean/dry rubber...won't lead to a cleaner barrel, and maybe tighter groups. (well, maybe CDN_Stalker who's always avocated putting a drop of silly oil in the hopup now and then...and an advocate of washing his heavy BBs in his favourite sock) I'd personally debate that it's not a practical step that I've found necessary to go through to get good/great/oh-jizz results...I'd also debate that it's not a good idea to put oil into the hopup or onto bbs in a mag to lube the rubber...I'm never going to wash my BBs, my wife thinks I'm nuts already.

That's cool though...three different opinions on two different things. That's what forums and this kind of stuff is for.

Okay curiosity has me...
How does one wash their BB's?

Rinse them in the sink with soap/just water?

I use a spaghetti strainer, dump them in, a squirt of dish soap, swirl around, repeat, and then rinse good. After shaking most of the remaining water out, dump them onto a clean dry towel on a table. And dry them off with a towel.

Brand new cotton sock with a single drop of "simple green MAX"

It's not harmful to ABS and PVC plastics (which are the main make-up of most BB's)

lol however.. don't try to wash bio BB's... Me thinks you'd end up with very poor results

Edit: Just for fun I think I'm gonna go take some 40 feet shots with my broken VSR-10 right now (Piston head O-ring has worn out so it's not getting proper compression and leading to all sorts of fucky results.

Actually I don't ever oil my rifle hop up rubbers (ok, once in a while I'll use a drop of oil as a solvent when giving my barrel a good clean), but the oil in thhe hop up is for my AEGs, and other's guns since many seem to plug up once in a while inthe field. Mind you, it might be every 6 months I'll come across that, often it's a rental that's plugged due to a dry and dusty hop up rubber. But for my rifles, I never oil the rubber, and I mostly use washed BBs too, it does increase the effectiveness of the hop up, allowing you to use less hop up which means less obstruction into the barrel (and I use the Guarder Clear in my M24 as it is, had for many years even at 500fps, and would change it every 6 months or so, and anyone that knows me knows I shoot it a LOT, like 1000rds every six months.) For a year and a bit I did use the RH65 rubber with that odd infinity shaped bucking, forget the name. Still didn't give me what the Clears do, is why I went back to it earlier this year.

so SCS with guarder clear is a solid setup.

assuming i play often, i should get the rubber changed ever year or so? or are promy rubbers more durable?

32 feet, un-benched while sitting on a soft foam bed, only using my elbow and knee for stabilization with a PDI VSR-10 (Firefly hop, VC set /w worn piston head o-ring and missing loading seal O-ring off of the loading nozzle.)

I'm willing to bet these ranges weren't even far enough for my piston's failing seal to even effect the BB, I'm 90% certain that the grouping is all shooter error :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0027.jpg
Shooting position

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0017.jpg
Target

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0019.jpg
10 feet from bed to the door, 22 feet from door to target

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0030.jpg
Barrel veiw

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0033.jpg
Target (Scope wasn't set, so I made a "aim here" mark)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0034.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0035.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...e/IMG_0036.jpg
2" wide by 1" tall grouping un-rested after 10 shots :)

What does this all prove?

BASEMENT ACCURACY TESTS MEAN JACK SHIT WHEN IT COMES TO LONG RANGE APPLICATION.

dude you got a Real Sword SVD! it means sell me your VSR! :D

btw, i think the tests will only be valid if you try shooting the SVD as well.... you know, to compare results [/sarcasm]

I doubt you'd want to pay the price that I'd be willing to let it go at lol...

To be honest.. I doubt anyone would... so I'm keepin' it!

:( I screwed up my outer barrel though... That stupid little silencer is stuck on there.... I want to take it off so I can put a proper sized one on there lol

Actually, indoor shooting for groups plays an important role in long range applications, because if you can only get a 2" group at 30ft, the old Japanese proverb 'small things become big things'; a 1/2" group at 30ft will have a better chance of being more accurate and consistant at 100ft than one that shoots 2" at 30ft. See where I'm going? I'm not saying that a gun that shoots 1/2" groups at 30ft is able to do consistant head shot groups at 200ft at all, I know that's bs because of two things: 1/ The unstable lightweight ammo we use; and 2/ the variable medium we shoot through.

Type What i meant to say is that if you have 2 pc hopup gun, then upgrading to 1 pc isnt a bad idea. English third language fail.

I know I know, I'm not talking about shooter skill here, I'm actually a pretty bad shot to be honest lol

The comparison I was making was determining if an outdoor gun will be good because it can get tight grouping at 40 feet lol

If I had a Bipod and a stable shooting platform it would be a better test ("1337" upgraded rifle v.s. upgraded rifle in desperate need of maintenance), but I don't use those things when I'm using my rifle... small trees and branches are my Bipod and my shooting platform lol

Ya, I know, just added my $0.02 worth anyways. My rifles tend to shoot pretty tight groups at 30ft often, but there are still occasional flyers. But I can't and won't ever say I can get consistant headshots at 200ft. 100-150ft, sure, as long as I know the drop amount of the round I'm using, and the conditions aren't too nasty. But indoors, even at short ranges, is a great way to check the consistancy of a gun, and also to set one's scope.

thank you, that's what I've been trying to say all this time.

Greetings everyone. :)

With regards to the topic "Systema vs Guarder Clear", I personally would recommend the Systema over the Guarder clear bucking because of its softness and durability.

Most of us here use the Systema soft type bucking with setups reaching up to 530 fps without having problems. Guarder clear on the other hand is a nice bucking but durability wise, it cannot compare to a Systema.

A common mistake I always encounter at forums is using a hard type bucking used for setups with only 400 fps and in reality, hard type buckings should be used for over 500+ fps setups.

So that everyone may know, hard type buckings are only good for its air sealing capability since the lip of the bucking doesn't expand that much compared to the soft type buckings.

With regards to accuracy tests, 30 feet is irrelevant since it is too near and the hop-up has no effect at that range. I would suggest that tests should be done starting at 50 feet and up.

I have lots of accuracy test videos at youtube under the name of rickybh and most of them were done using stock barrels, stock bucking, stock internals and only an SCS is installed.

If you have any questions, please visit my site at http://shredderscs.proboards.com/index.cgi? or probably a stickied thread pertaining to hop-up problems here at ASC.

Thanks very much and Happy Holidays!:)

Ricky

Most of the AEG set-ups in Canada are limited to 400 FPS if you're firing full auto -- For Canadian application, I find that the guarder clear is superior to the systema (My own personal testing) But -- To each their own.

400 fps is quite ok already. Our setups here go way beyond 500+ and full-auto can be used which is very very painful.

Regarding the bucking, I was basing my answer based on my personal experiences and from all the inputs that were provided to me as well as posts coming from forums all around.

The more inputs we gather, the better.:)

Not to thread jack here, but at what distance do you recommend Zero'ing your Scope for?

It depends... I zero my scopes at a minimum of 120 feet.:)

Depends on what? :P

If it means anything, it will be Full PDI internals Firing at around 450 FPS.

If you play CQB, zero the scope at 50-75 feet or 100 feet up if you play on the field.

What do you mean by Full PDI internals?

Ah, alright. As in Hop-up, Barrel, Cylinder Set, Trigger. Everything internal will be PDI.

For VSR's PDI parts are nice but the PDI hop chamber doesn't provide good results considering that it uses a rubber "noodle" like nub inside. :(

Thats why you buy an SCS. :D

TM stock vinyl hop ups are the most consistent performing hop ups hands down. I find that SystemAs are a moderate second. Both are vinyl based parts (I think it's vinyl anyways, it's definitely not silicone) and appear to be compatible with silicone oils.

Guarder clear and black hop up sleeves are silicone rubber which exhibits nearly the worst abrasion resistance of commercially available elastomers. Silicone rubber is also not compatible with silicone oils because they absorb silicone oils and bloat. They also become softer and even more prone to abrasion.

Guarder black sleeves used to be vinyl based so they were my aftermarket go to favorite, but some years ago, they switched to silicone so I dropped them from my inventory (ASCA days).

I do find that SystemA and TM sleeves are not very tolerant to many other makes of hop up assemblies. I try to use SystemA or TM sleeves only with TM or SystemA hop up assemblies because other aftermarket makers haven't really gotten around to checking their calipers against gauge blocks.

oh god, you guys make me feel so warm and fuzzy inside.

For Panther, I'd say 150~200feet, do it on the field every game. Wind/humidity, etc etc can vary the trajectory slightly on different days.

MadMax, I agree with you. Aftermarket hop up assemblies have poor tolerances which makes certain sleeves/buckings hard to fit and sometimes they are too loose.

That's where modding comes in... lol! :D

Skladfin, just relax and enjoy. :)

ya good advice ill follow that =="

Am I the only one that caught this?

Marc, You're talking to the guy who INVENTED the SCS about buying an SCS ROFL!

Haha yeah i noticed that too :P

Also, thanks Skladfin, and if it makes any difference, its a Maruzen APS-2 SV.

Thank you Sir Shredder for finally coming to Airsoftcanada.

This is very TRUE. my prometheus HARD rubber in the prometheus neo hopup chamber V2 is sooo tight that at 450FPS the BB will not exit the barrel (M140spring) resulting in blown piston. It wasnt until i installed the Airsoft surgeon stage 6 that I had BB's exit the barrel.

I keep telling you guys, guarder black, best quality and durability I've seen apart from firefly. Prometheus rubbers are unfinished and the systema ones give random trajectories.
I had nothing else to throw in my M249, so I threw a guarder clear rubber in it before an op. Went through 3 bags of ammo, had to adjust my hopup, went through another 2 bags of ammo, went home, and gazed in amazment at the 2.5mm deep groove my 249 had reamed through the nub in the hop rubber.
But I've had a guarder black in there for over 12 bags and it's still fine and dead accurate.

Hrrrm...

There's a good way to remove the nub in Guarder clears for SCS!

LOL

I use a Dremel with a diamond coated engraving bit to remove the mound/nub inside the bucking/sleeve.:D