Tokyo Marui Losing Popularity
 

Hey guys, I recently emailed Todd from the War Store, and to my surprise, he told me that Tokyo Marui has been dumped by almost all US distributors because they were doing very poorly. Is there a reason why TM suddenly became so unpopular?

Isnt it obvious? People are cheap and there is alot of cheaper stuff out there.
So TM loses a little of their North American market. Im more than sure they are still going strong in Japan.

I honestly still think tokyo marui is up there with he best airsoft companies. Whether Todd or whomever told you it was losing popularity, it will still be one of the best.

Think about it! Everyone always wants to know if there gun is marui compatible! I dont think these guns will ever lose style, or popularity.

Atleast in my eyes :(

On www.airsoftforum.com. You'll see that the Tokyo Marui guns are still funneling around there and there

Its usually the big US retailers that can broker better deals and the smaller retailers opt for cheaper stuff cause its a quick sell.

Big retailers like these still carry a whack load of Tokyo Marui and Tokyo Marui compat parts

http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/
http://www.spartanimports.com/content/
http://airsoftpost.com/index.php

It is true it has lost its popularity for small retailers but what is lost for small companies the bigger ones pickup

its cause all of the 1337 kids in the states want full metals guns that shoot at unnecessarily high FPS and crap like that.

That is true and on AirsoftShorty USA there are a few reviews of those full metal AEGs shredding their gears and full metal GBBs out of the box shredding up the metal slide

I personally believe that TM is still going very strong. Look at their new blow back AEG's (M4 Sopmod and AK74's). They are full metal, like most of the clones, and they shoot around 300fps, which is great for indoor. They not only have a moving bolt that looks cool, but actually give you a KICK for every shot you shoot.

The blow back mechanism has something giving it a push BACKWARDS during each shot. This is something that takes a lot of brain to figure out.

And I don't think there will be any clones of these anytime soon.

It should be noted that we don't see any Marui in Canada like we used to since the CFC basically put a moratorium on Marui specifically in 1995-1996. It was has since been removed from their facts sheets, but the damage was already done.

They had such a hard-on for Marui back then, but mainly because it was the biggest manufacturer and had the largest presence in Canada. The clones really didn't exist then, and ICS and Classic Army were still small-market stuff.

What's in a Name?
 

Perhaps its the "Buy American," thing going around in the dust of the financial meltdown. Not known for their depth of research could it be Americans seek out something with the name Army in the title versus Tokyo. Or they just like cheaper stuff.

Haven't handled a TM but it's still the holy grail for me as far as standard guns go. PTW is still holds the title of "Skyline GT-R" as far as airsoft goes (everyone wants one and they're hella expensive).

I don't care much for 400 FPS, 999999 RPS, guns. What I want is something reliable. Whereas most kiddies only care about high FPS and RPS.

I guess you could say it's the difference between a Civic and some American built super leet 500HP car. Civic is pretty standard and has a shitload of replacment and aftermarket parts available for it, AND it's generally pretty reliable. I'd rather take something that I know will be reliable and has a modest amount of power.

Loved the car analogies XD
Thanks for answering my question guys, cheers.

^Also lol at the car analogies.

Yeah if I had the oppurtunity I would go for Marui, particularly because I enjoy upgrading guns. FPS doesn't mean much to me, as long as the bb gets there and isn't going slow enough to Matrix dodge it, and I avoid high RPS. For some reason I prefer real steel ROF to something like 20-30 bb's/s.

It's a shame to see TM losing business, but hopefully there will always be a big enough market for them worldwide for them to keep pumping out new, innovative models, rather than airsoft becoming stagnant with more and more clones of what we already have.

Their new guns are WAY too expensive to be popular en-masse in the American market.

$500+ isn't going to fly when you can get a Jing Gong gun for 150 bucks.

all i know is that ive owned a agm, JG, BE and TM.... i only have TMs now...

I'm very hesitent to buy anything other than TM. All my AEG where TM and they never broke for stupid reason. They never broke actually.

neither do mine.... i got my g36c in a trade fired bout 15000 rounds and still perfect.... im the only guy i know that can walk out to the game and have to refill my hicap cause i was shooting trees, water,sky....

I don't think that's your gun's fault... nor is it a good thing.

My luck with TM hasnt been sooooo amazing..

When i was like 15 i managed to score a TM m4a1 v1.

The body pins broke and the barrel wobble got so rediculous it resembled a corner shot. The thing was held together with zipties. Thats why my nickname on the field has always been zapstrap-jak. o.o

The AK-47 on the other hand was awesome, great ROF, fps was a tad low, but i dont mind that and it feels like im not raping my gun when i shoot it

The M4a1 was the worst gun of the TM line. The second was the Famas.
Every other gun they made was very good. Especially V3 gearbox guns.

The G3SAS, although not very popular, was a beast.

With the 100's of cheap clones available in the US market its no suprise that TM has lost popularity they can replace there cheapy guns 3-4 times for the cost of a tm where as in canada getting any airsoft gun can be difficult it makes sense for us to spend the extra money to buy quality.

I have yet to buy a TM only have a JG mp5 right now but it was a starter for me but since i have gotten to shoot quality guns i will def be saving the money and get the TM's from here on out

With a TM you can get a comforting feeling that every time you pick up your gun it will work consistantly for the next few years, where as other brands you constantly wonder what might break. (Well not new PTWs obviously). The new Marui M4's look promising, and the S-Systems have no barrel wobble. But then again I've never been fans of their zinc alloy, they still last longer than wood burning stoves in stock form though, so what ever.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the one biggest performance factor that seems to put TM above everyone else (no, not reliability).

TM has designed some of the most stable and effective hop-ups in existence. Look at the post Hi-capa hop-up design (this includes the Mk23 NBB and the VSR-10). They're simply phenomenal. Many of them had a split 'nub' pressing on the rubber before anyone even thought of V-hops or H-hops (case in point, Mk23).

That said, I still swapped in a firefly V-hop rubber, but the stability is all TM.

The Mk23 NBB is amazing. One of the most accurate airsoft guns I've ever used.

People would rather buy cheap full pot metal chinese guns than plastic ones that work amazing. And then of course complain about the poor performance later when it never works right lol

never really thought about it untill now. I own a TM, kwa, G&G, G&P, Classic army and a JG. Of all the guns i own I bang around My JG hk416 the most because of the indoor scene. I love My Tm but why dirty up a expensive gun when the more inexpensive JG has rocked all winter indoor. Also My cheap JG hasnt caused me a minor glitch at all since buying it. For simular fps and rps i would rather trip and fall on the JG than the TM any day.

A simple one piece outer barrel upgrade to the TM M4 and its an amazing, reliable airsoft gun...

I agree, it's because TM guns are expensive and the 12 year old kid in the states can't afforsd a $300 gun a $5 weekly allowance so that means that there going to sell less.

I'm going to use car analogies again, JG is like a cheap general motors car whereas the TM are like a subaru... The gm car is cheaper because it is made en-mass out of cheap components while the subaru is made out of quality parts. In the end it's a double whammy, the TM is more expensive becuase it's made in japan and also because it's higher quality.

This leads me to the point that TM is probably still doing well in japan because it's a local company therefore is cheaper there.

In the end I really don't care what the states is doing, because that's not where TM's hq is and for the last point, when I do get my airsfot guns, I'm planning on the AEG and GBB to both be TM so they are durable.

I think with the use of aluminium for the new ones they can reclaim what they lost. The plastic part I think is the biggest turn down, not FPS or RPS. If it feel like a toy people aint going to like it. Unfortunately TM can't use metal for their GBBs since its against the Japanese law.

why would it be a bad thing? also isnt it the guns job to shoot bbs????? im just making sure im getting what i paid for hehe....

I won't bash the clones, due to the fact I have seen/handled many and they work fine. However when it comes to constant reliability, rock solid preformance it's TM all the way. The m14 hop-up unit is my absolute favorite. I have owned a PTW, tm famas,tm m4, tm M14......the list goes on and I have had to work on my teams guns tons. The clones arn't evil but they do require extra attention espicially when first purchased. TM are harder to get in Canada and at a higher price tag. Also if your planing on upgrading all the internals anyway I can see the lure of a cheaper gun. So to my mind it's price that would be the achillies heel for TM

My first AEG was a TM (SR16), and it was great. While other manufacturers have closed the gap with TM over the years few would argue that TM still offers the highest out of the box reliability of just about any other brand.

They might be mostly plastic, they don't shoot the hardest in stock trim, and they're expensive compared to other brands. But when you pick up a TM and pull the trigger you don't have to worry if it will work. It just does.

My first gun was a TM MP5 SD6... I had so many problems with it that I eventually just fixed it and got rid of it.

I've got a TM AK-47s and when I chrono'd it, it was shooting at 215fps which was rather disappointing. So my friend and I took it all apart and found that the cheap plastic piston and o-ring were hardly making any contact with the cylinder walls. The folding stock was broken on it too. But I did buy it for $225 so over the course of the year as I can afford it, it will undergo a big transformation that will include a metal body, wood kit (hmm... maybe Mahogany.lol), lipo battery, upgraded motor, metal gears, new piston, spring, a new cylinder with a proper cross hatch pattern. And best of all LOVE. lol

Hard on was right we have a bunch of Marui tank seized because it was made by Marui.
In general Marui despite what some would say about their lack of "goodies" are still by far the best AEG out of the box in my opinion, like Scopedog said you dont have to worry about it not working when you pull the trigger and lets not forget that eventhough the CA, G&P, KA etc. have better value or more goodies than Marui, they all copied Marui R&D sometime and I'm proud to say that I still use my Marui HK51.

well I will put this way, as much as I like the insurgents of clone airsoft. I would still love to have back my old ak-47, and I would almost give a pinky finger to have one of the m4 sopmod! and that new aks-74u is so beatiful I would ether. also remember that most pistols are clones of marui or based off off them.

I knew about the CSAB Banning the marui brand, and like it has already been said the damage has been done.

also side note the TM FAMas isn't junk its just very old design.

I think people don't like it because they don't know how to fix the creekyness and they can't stick a shitload of tacticool accessories on it or make it shoot at 399.99999 fps.

I loved my FA-MAS. Never should have sold it. I definetly want another one one day.

Edit:
Just checked the classifieds, out of the 30 posts on the first page, 13 of them are for TM guns. That's 43%. I think its safe to say TM is still quite popular.

FYI stock Marui in general shoot at 280fps, in 18 plus years in Airsoft i find that Marui stock V3 can take the most punishment especially in winter, I still have an original AK47 with mostly stock box with the exception of metal bushing, spring guide and a PDI 150% spring (330fps). the only thing to really fix your problem and make it a sweet AEG would just be a cylinder kit, spring and swap the original plastic bushings to a metal version

That's only in Canada, which is a very VERY small portion of the market. Like non-existent.

There are Marui-clone tanks out now, all over the place. Even up here in hillbilly-nowhere.

How ironic.

I'm willing to bet you $50 that a Marui tank will still get seized here in Toronto, the CBSA official in Toronto is an idiot

I wouldn't take that bet.

Just get a clone Tiger, and upgrade it!!

True, but I don't really give a shit about other markets.

The Heng Long Tiger is a pretty damned good clone. Not sure if it's cloned from the TM or Tamiya version though. And in the tank market, the prices here in Canada ARE $100 compare to $600... I'll go with the clone ;)

That's OK, because Tokyo Marui doesn't give shit about you (us) either :p

Exactly! No shared love there :p

It's business.

MPEGs retail generally for at least half of what a TM does, more when you add in the extras. MPEGs make sense for a new airsofter. The problem is many players never graduate beyond the MPEGs.

I have a theory that MPEGs have a higher profit margin then TM, and probably other premium AEGs do. If a retailer makes the same profit selling 1 MPEG that he does selling 1 TM AEG, his stock costs are at least twice the money stocking TM AEGs then stocking MPEGs. He is going to push the MPEGs because they are easier to sell (cheap), cost him less (higher profit) and if the player stays in airsofting is going to be back to buy another one (MPEGs break quickly).

It's business.

QFT AND sigged.

I think that another reason TM dropped in popularity is that they carried the most "vanilla" models. If you want something a bit unique on the field you almost have to look at other suppliers.

Just cause they carried common stuff didn't mean they didn't have uncommon stuff avalible...

I understand those staying away from TM guns all together. As some of my friends said, you'll pay a ridiculous price for a plastic gun that you will need to upgrade anyway for it to be competitive and to fix the few problems you might have with their mechbox. Although it might have the best mechbox in the airsoft world, a TM gun will still need some 50-100$ worth of upgrades.

So you'll pay around 600$ for a very good gun indeed, but you'll also soon realize that you will have to upgrade it to fully enjoy its greatness. The same can be said for what... 90% of airsoft guns.. True, but most won't cost you 600$. Just take a freaking Kraken for example. You can get a kraken for 120$, change EVERYTHING in it, and for about the price of a stock TM AK, you'll get something that is better and made of metal and wood if you're a little lucky.

Quality wise, TM are still the best, but like all high end AEGs, they suffer from the clones that are now every-freaking-where, at 1/3 or 1/2 of the price... Kids are buying airsoft guns like crazy and newcomers simply wanting to test the sport, are buying clones that they will upgrade later instead of buying CA, TM etc...

Its no real surprise for me to see TM and some other high end AEGs having problems selling their stuff. Especially in Canada. My first gun will be a VFC, a TM, a KWA or a CA. I'm not interested in buying a JG or any other cheap clone. But all the guns I'm looking for are 600+$ stock. They will need some upgrades or some parts that are simply not included with the gun. But I'm ready to take the plunge and be serious about this. And out of the 9 guys I know that are interested in the sport, I'm the only one ready to dish out so much money right off the bat. But that's airsoft for you, you have both choices really. Go cheap, or go deep.

I could not disagree with you more. TM boxes do not need a single upgrade or repair out of the box. They are a dream right away. They perform great and super reliable. Yes, you don't get 350-400 fps, but you don't even need that anyways.
You are paying for the fact that you don't need to upgrade if you don't want to, ever, and you don't have to worry, will it work or not? Will anything break after I use it for a while? They are good at bone stock forever.

I know 5 guys who are using TM airsofts, none kept their TM stock. I would keep a TM stock for indoor use no problem, but for outdoor, 280 fps is too low. If you want to use .25 grams bb's to go through bushes and stuff, you'll need something that can pack a bigger punch. I don't think that you need anymore than 350 fps for outdoor games if you have a good hop-up and tightbore and barrel.

But you might want a hotter gun if you want to use some heavier bb's. A 280 fps gun using .25 grams BB's will drop to 200 fps. Might be a little ridiculous don't you think? TM is high quality and their stock 280 fps AEGs are gonna outshoot most 330 fps average AEGs. But still, its only because its TM. If you depend more on your gun than on yourself (using cover etc...) you won't really do well VS guys who are using 370 fps CA of KWA AEGs.
If I want to buy a gun and never have to worry about mechbox upgrades, I'd be tempted to go for KWA over TM, but TM is still more reliable. No wonder, shooting at 280 fps won't stress your mechbox that much. ;)

With the flood of the TM compatible guns such as Jing Gong and other TM copy brands, it does not surprise me that the popularity and sales of Tokyo Marui guns have dropped in North America.

Tokyo Marui is still my first choice for reliability and quality.

Honestly, the whole hype about TMs having legendary reliability is fairly BS. ANY low-mid to high end gun with stock TM spring will last forever. My friend has a firepower P90 he got for indoor plinking. It is ALL plastic internals, gears, box AND cylinder, we CANNOT break it even with a firefox lipo fully charged and firing dry for up to a minute at a time (we stop cause the battery starts to warm up) it probably on survived due to the 230ish fps powered spring it has, does that make firepower P90's one of the best guns out there?

You've never had any real experience with that have you?
A stock TM gun firing 280fps will drop to about 250fps. But yes I agree that's too low for outdoor.

Exactly. TM's are great stock as they are designed for the Japanese FPS market and any designer will make it their product be able to handle even more stress than it was original intended to, IE 300-350 FPS. Just keep in mind, once you slap in a upgrade part, its not longer a TM. Its a TM with a M110 in it, or its a TM with a Systema blah blah. I still think TM's make great guns anyone with a TM M14 will tell you that. I still think today its their best out of the box gun. Its a workhorse, you couldn't break it even if you tried.

Other thing we have to consider, is that there are acually "made in Japan", not China matufactured...of course, it makes price high.

their models are very basic, but internals are one of the best in the market. except low fps, there is nothing you have to replace with after market parts.

G&P has been coming out with more and more upgrade parts for TM M14's, I wouldn't be surprised if they released an M14 based on TM's instead of G&G's flawed design that CA based theirs off of.

Look at the biggest sellers on most American sites and it's all the cheap guns, CYMA, Big Elephant, etc. and then Chinese clones like JG, etc.

It's just the market.

Clone guns have only started to be promenant in Canada since about 2005 when UTG mp5's were being sold. I had one as my first AEG and they weren't bad. It chrono'd at about 350. Then I got a TMP90 as a grad gift. Shot about 260 with .25s And it outranged the Mp5! Also most aftermarket parts are designed to fit with TM. The Guarder KAC RIS I got for my G&G had to have the barrel nut modded since the G&G buffer tube is larger than a TM buffer tube.

I have high respect for TM, as they are the first company who brought AEG to this world. Their R&D is very thorough and quality is very good. Just like Tamiya, the model they offer tend to be more "mass", rather than those more unique ones, but they are playable right out of the box without causing much trouble.

Admittedly their old M4 series has big wobbling problem, but the recent ones are much improved.

Their metal AEGs may not have the best metal, but it's already good enough for games and many hours of enjoyment. And as said by many friends here, their stock guns alreay outperform some of the clone and their hop-up design is outstanding.

Their attention to details is reflected by the good fitting of parts, well design packaging, manual. Eventhough I maybe paying more, I believe my dollars are well spent.

Funny to think how back in mid to late 2007 most of us stood by dont buy crap buy TM or better, and then JG slowly crept in, even though it was already there. They just got a little better, and then they get a little better some more, and then they got a little bit better some more. Then they came out with their 416, and then on a drunken whim I bought one tore it apart and wrote a review about it. Then it just snow balled through out 2008 until we have what we know today.

Good gosh I contributed to bringing popularity to lower quality products. I have to go shower now.

I can see the terrible future now, in 3 years warlmat guns will be considered good quality. CYMA and URAMEX form into one company called CYMURESEX who bought up everything and are now legitimately the largest airsoft cloners on earth. TM while still a strong company goes under ground and keeps their R&D under super tight security. Systema PTWs prices have dropped 200USD, but in an effort to keep people interested they release a gold plated diamond studded edition called the Super UBER MAX ELITE +63 Mark V. Magul finally releases another item for their PTS line, Amos owns a chain of walk in airsoft stores and has grown a full beard. Age verifaction min age has been raised to 21. McDonalds and BurgerKing have merged into a restaurant called Mc Kings that serves a 15000 calorie sandwhich called Tripple Whop Mac. Ronan enters his third marriage. 8mm bearings now exist for mechboxes, new users finally start reading the FAQs on ASC because it has become manditory to read through it and answer a test before they are given posting rights. The new rage is cheese flavoured bubble gum and MC Hammer makes a come back. In a drastic move to combat CYMURESEX, King Arms, G&P and Classic Army merge into a company called Cling Arms & P.

LOL!!!!!

But on a more serious note I think the clones were able to invade due to the HK416 by JG. Beacuse the only other versions of it that were avaliable were expensive. Hurricane had the body kit and after you found a donor gun it was close to $1000. And VFC had a full version that was over $1000.

T7 your future for airsoft kinda scares me, but i do like the idea of walk in airsoft shops. still, i agree with your take on clones and such.

For a stock gun, TM or VFC all the way baby.

P.S. I LOVE my TM AK74M!!!

Yeah sorry for that... A gun shooting at 280 fps with .12 will drop to around 200-220 fps, but not if it shoots at 280 with .20's... My mistake really. But yeah you got my point.


Way to go Tokyo! You almost convinced me to buy a JG with that review a few months ago you fiend ! But I was able to resist unlike alot of newcomers who are simply gonna jump on such a positive review of a cheap clone. Well.. not that cheap.

Chinese clones are making leaps and bounds in terms of QA. While the majority may not quite be up there with TM, many are damn close in terns of reliability, and most either outperform a stock TM out of the box in terms of velocity, and many will do just as well for range and accuracy. Some may need some slight tweaking like a new hopup rubber to get that same range and accuracy.

That being said, compared to TM, the lemon rate is higher with budget Chinese clones. The higher end brands like JG have fewer problems than most. Echo 1 get a good reputation because they're JG with extra QA, and if they break (at least for American customers), they come with a warranty.

So it's not hard to see why people are switching to Chinese clones that cost 1/2 the price. I'm extremely happy with both my JG guns. Even with much higher end guns in my collection, my JGs are still some of my favourites and have performed above and beyond the call time and time again.

Now compared to my first real AEG - a TM M4A1, JG are gold. My TM was a lemon of epic proportions. Within a week, the motor fried. I got a new TM motor, and within another week, the gears snacked on themselves. I got new gears (Modify modular), a slightly stronger spring (Prometheus MS100SP) and about 1000 rounds later, the mechbox shell cracked at the nozzle. So yeah. I could have bought a JG for 1/2 the price and chances are I wouldn't have had anywhere near the problems I had.

I'll pop the cash to get high end metal guns like CA, but I'll never again waste my money on a TM.

LOL, I wish I could add this one in my signature on ASC!

Now, if like me you have the metal disease, you want metal bodied gun... Here is what happen, you get a TM and you end up having to change the body (which is expensive and legally hard to do). The other way around, you get a chinese metal clone, run it until it died and then, put in some quality internal. It can get expensive and you cannot get a new TM drop-in mechbox... So, one way or another, using TM can be painfull. Metal disease and TM don t go along very well IMO, that why CA, VFC, G&G, G&P and such make great choice to avoid surprise... BUT, now, TM is starting to release metal bodied AEGs, which could be (time will tell) the perfect AEGs out there. Also assuming (dreaming) that TM 280 fps - 1 joule stock config would be increased to 350 fps for export (if legally possible in Japan)...

TM is like the Nissan GT-R in my opinion, the mechanic is insane, but the esthetic of the car (the body) is not there (no metal body). Having a stock TM with metal bodie will be like owning a Lamborghini, you get the performance AND the (metal) look. Now, I know that the GT-R eat pretty much all of the Lambo out there, but if I use the Enzo instead, they would have been no room left for the PTW...

Stupid metal disease... TM is not the right medication :(

there are plenty of cars that are much much faster than the enzo, in a strait line or around the track... gumpert apollo (which actually IMO looks kick ass), and the R500 from Caterham for a starter... 60k for a veyron killer.

TM's new SOPMOD actually comes with a metal body, plus all the other cool features it has.

Honestly that's the only thing i would buy tm for, the newest innovations in airsoft. If another company builds one too however....

T7 how can a company be secretive about airsoft developments? Unless TM starts JBwelding all their gearboxes shut =p.

truth be told, IMHO, if you were to buy TM, one should buy:

M14
P90 (im not a P90 fan, but im told this is a great little gun)
Type 89
M4 SOPMOD

Basically all of their full metal guns. Their non-full metal guns are great, but for some, they like the full metal feel.

i agree with all but the P90, i want one but if i get one i'll go for an echo1

I could only see the appeal if you had no ability to fix or tune a gun and only played cqb.

Give me a metal body jg and $100 in upgrades and for less than a tm, I have a metal body 400 fps monster.

Really? I wonder how that works with how the airsoft laws work over in Japan. The sopdmods FPS confirms to the laws, but I always thought airsoft guns were required to be produced from materials that would prevent the item from ever being modified into a real fire arm, hense no metal. Maybe the laws have relaxed a bit, if so thats cool.

Not even gona try to explain.
Everyone else got it. You'll figure it out.

I like them all, TM, VFC, Maurtzen, KSC, A&K, and more.

There are clearly intangible benefits to the TM guns as they're copied by many of the clone companies. VFC get copied by DBoys, CA gets copied by A&K also.

It's a chicken and the egg argument and you really can't say the copies are so good now the source can dry up and blow away.

here in my country TM is getting less popular and the reason I think is that there are basically two types of people. One would be cheap a** and so they would prefer JG. In fairness they're really really good budget guns. The other one would be those rich a** and they would shell out anything just for anything, and nowadays we have high-end brands that are really worth every penny e.g. G&G VFC ICS etc...

TM is a bit in the middle and so they're somewhat stuck. Usually people here just either get cheap China replicas or the Taiwan high-end guns

TM has a serious over-pricing issue... honestly, if you take 5 minutes and think about every individual part, why would anyone buy a TM lets say S-System over a JG S-System?

One pays for R&D, QC and a little extra for proper packaging with TM. Furthermore, with the Yen doing well against Western currencies of late and the cost of Japanese labour vs Chinese labour, you're looking at a bigger outlay just to have something equivalent made, but the quality is quite high with TM.

If copyright laws were more enforcible in China, many clones wouldn't even be able to exist. But they do, so people buy them and save some cash up front. Now that there are clones of clones out there into comparitively reliable build generations with price, selection and availability at good levels, the hard reasons to buy the original are faded - which is perhaps what we're seeing reflected.


K.

You are forgetting who created the initial AEGs that are cloned today, TM put their money into R&D creating the first electric airsoft guns and created all the different versions of gears boxes that we know today. Tokyo Marui uses quality parts to assemble their products and for the most part observe a very high quality control when it comes to their product.

Cloners like JG save costs by not having to put any money into research and development. They purchase mid to low quality materials in bulk from the lowest bidder and assemble their product in a hasty manner with mid to low quality control in an effort to get more products produced on mass for quick sale.

I would honestly purchase a TM over a JG any day just because I know I would be supporting a company that took the time to care about what they do. Its not over pricing at all, you are paying for quality. Its like comparing a real deal Louis Vuitton suitcase to a clone, they look the same, they both do the same thing. However one company took the time to design and create their product with quality materials while another simply took the design and remade it with lower end materials for cheaper for mass sale because there are cheap people out there who want the look without the price tag.

I prefer TM's stability anytime. They are a lot more enjoyable to work with. Sure they may lack a metal body, but then again they are no paper weight either, unlike those JG, G&G low-mid-grade. ...

Another thing people forget is the consistancy with which TM guns shoot. They're always bang on +/- maybe 2 FPS... some clones have a varience of 10 or more between shots. And all that's not to mention the hop-up. TM hop-up units are amoung the best out there. Tolerences are significantly tighter.. materials are much better quality... overall they're better quality guns.

What are you talking about? JG's have proven to be good quality guns.

I disagree that G&G and ICS are high end brands, the metal body alone, without a consistent performance right out of the box, can hardly make them satisfy that "high end" label.

I think normal ICS aren't bad. Their CanSoft ones are pretty poor though. I'd put G&G on the bottom of the "higher end" brands -right above JG.

I'll agree for the M14 and M4 SOPMOD. I know nothing about the Type 89, so can't comment.

I've tried a couple of TM M14s, and several clones. And I can say without a doublt that the clones come nowhere near TM in terms of feel and just overall performance and reliability. I'm not a fan of the M14, but if I were to get one, it would be TM all the way. None of the clones that I've seen come close. I haven't seen a CA M14. I can imagine it's probably a lot better than the other clones, but of the ones I've seen, they were crap as far as I'm concerned.

As for the M4 SOPMOD, it's a totally new product and quite innovative. The all-metal construction and well thought out battery system make it quite an attractive piece. But as Sepulcrum said, if a Chinese company (like JG) were to start cloning that design and managed to make it as reliable as their other guns, then I'd go that route. Although I'm sure once the model gets cloned, it will take a couple of years for the Chinese companies to work out all the kinks.

As for the P90, I've tried both the TM and Echo 1. IMO, the Echo 1 wins hands down, especially considering it's less than 1/2 the price. With its reinforced 7mm gearbox, metal bushings, reinforced gears, aluminum piston head, 350 fps spring, and other internals that seem to be of great quality, IMO that beats TM's pot metal internals and low performance. And it's also got a nice, solid metal receiver which in my opinion if every bit as good as any after-market P90 receiver I've seen (short of the trademarks). That makes it an easy winner in my books over the TM.

They are better now, they never used to be.

As I said in my first post in this thread - JG have made leaps and bounds in quality recently. And I've only been into airsoft for a couple of years now. Back when I started, they were still pretty junky, but starting to get a lot better. Nowadays, they're quality guns. Chinese stuff usually takes a while to get good. The first few versions are usually pretty shitty, but they learn quickly.

Indeed. I know a lot of people on here were around when Classic Army first started and have quite a few horror stories about them. CA has gotten to the point where I honestly can't think of any instance I'd get a TM over a CA.

When I first started playing the best clone out there was the CYMA .027 (think Aftermath Lycon, same gun AFAIK). Generally clones were considered shit until JG came along with their JG36 (it's still considered one of their best guns), and even then, it's still no where near the CA G36 line for quality. Though now that I have JG's P90, I have to admit its a nice little gun, especially compared to the more than twice as expensive TM version.

People still praise the Kraken to no end. I still say boo-urns to that. For a project gun where you're replacing everything anyway, yea go ahead. But at that point its no longer a kraken. I still recommend newbies start out with a gun they KNOW will work out of the box. I've heard too many stories of Krakens failing out of the box or within a thousand rounds or so to recommend them as "the perfect starter gun" as so many people seem to think they are. A perfect starter gun is one you KNOW you can put 20,000 rounds through without needing to do anything to it... Ie, not a clone. I still recommend TMs (and yea crunch, I know you've had a couple of DoA TMs... you're an anomoly lol) and CAs for just that reason.

I've only sold ONE TM AEG.

Ya........

TM was great for it's time, expensive but the QA was there at least.

Then the clones came in and eventually caught up in terms of QA.

TM didn't really give much of a damn though. IIRC the patent laws in Japan prevent the cheap clones from being imported to Japan, so TM enjoys a massive domestic market (even in the height of TM's power in the Americas, probably for even one international TM airsoft gun sold, probably 10 or more sold in the Japanese domestic market).

Uh, know this is a bit late but they're more like the Ferrari, good for looks. Skylines aren't expensive, it's just the laws restrict their imporation, but you can get one pretty cheap stock.

TM Fan here. At first, I don't understand what the fuss is all about these plastic aeg's. But when I got a chance to own two TM gbb's and an AK47 TM Aeg, I finally understood why TM's became popular despite the low out of the box fps rating. Solid, wobble free externals, excellent gearbox to hop alignment (well as far as version 3 goes), great out of the box shimmings. My fully upgraded AK shoots at 440 plus fps, and I'm pretty sure that my baby won't fail me both on weekend skirmishes as well as big airsoft events.

Been playing almost 10 years. All my guns are Japanese (TM, Maruzen, or Tanaka). Never had a stock one fail on me in the field for any reason other than a low battery. The only guns I've ever had issues with are non-Japanese guns (Classic Army, ICS, Kraken, Dboys). Although, when I had my STAR L85A1, it ran like a dream.

Heh, it's kinda' funny to think that even 2 years ago, clones were frowned upon and TM was generally very recommended,

^ sige?

I still recommend TMs (or CAs) to beginners over clones.

I don't care what anyone says, I haven't seen a clone I'd put on the same level as the equivalent TM. The JG guns are good... but not as good IMO. For the price they're great... but I'd still rather pay the additional $$$ for a TM/CA gun.

Although, having said that, go back two years and look at what clones were available. 90% of them were complete crap and weren't worth the money. Nowadays we have clones that are actually worth buying. So I think for the most part it simply becomes a trade off of how much money one wants to spend vs. how much work they want to do. We still get the occaisional new guy who is like "I want a good, BS free gun" and who will gladly take the recommendation of a TM or CA over an ACM clone.

The one thing that seems very hard to make newer people understand now though with regards to clones is that "brand name" airsoft guns hold their value much better, and if they decide to sell it later they'll probably lose less money on it than they would a clone.

I second that, at least for CA. A noob won't have the skillset required to break into their gun and repair it if something goes wrong. For the FIRST gun, a noob who's serious about getting into airsoft really should look at a CA or something comparable to make sure it's a trouble-free experience.

Now that being said, for someone who knows their way around an AEG, I think TM is a total waste of money. You can get a clone that with a bit of work and money, will outperform and outlast any TM for 1/2 the price. I can't in good conscience now buy a plastic TM with plastic bushings, weak gears, and weak shell that all need to be replaced in order to get high, competitive and trouble-free performance.