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Optics Vs. Iron sights
Not sure if anybody posted anything like this before, but are optical sights "better" than standard Iron Sights? I feel like the standard sights on a weapon are/should be better than an aftermarket optical sight because the iron sights are developed specifically for that weapon. For example, I sometimes can't decide whether to use a reflex sight (mini red dot), FACOG (Fake ACOG) or standard iron sights. Im assuming it would depend on the environment but whenever I see photos or videos of airsoft games, almost everybody will be rocking some sort of optical sight. Also, it sounds funny, but I kind if feel more comfortable sighting with iron sights, simply because my weapon feels lined up for a shot.
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iron sights here
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Depends on your play style and preferences, I suppose.
Some people use for RDS and Scopes. Some just use their iron sights, since it's airsoft. Some people go as far as getting real steel T1's and EoTechs. I had a fake EoTech and a G&P Aimpoint M2 Rep and was not a fan of either, I tried a friends replica T1 and enjoyed it quite a lot. Currently I run iron sights, but debating on budgeting for a T1 style replica. Edit: If you get a chance, I would check out some local people's setup or friends optics to get a real feel for it. Everyone is different and some prefer x over y and z style of RDS/Scopes. |
If the optics are zeroed to your gun then you will shoot as straight as you will with the irons.
In some cases, as most airsoft iron sights are not fully adjustable you can not zero the gun to the irons. I run irons most the time, but I have also a Holographic red dot, when it's zeroed to the gun it can facilitate faster sign pick up . and faster engagements. it's co-witnessed to the irons .. so I don't loose the irons, I just overlay onto them the red dot. Which in my opinion is your ideal set up |
There are a lot (not all) of situations in which you'll find yourself engaging targets much faster with the aid of red dots n such. This isnt just an opinion but, but based on the experience of professionals over years. Not to knock on iron sights, they definitely have their strengths and uses. But the reason why people use them in the first place is that its an enhancement over iron sights in many(but not all) situations. And just note, that when using pretty much all sighting systems, you should almost always try to get "lined up for a shot".
As for being developed specifically for the weapon, there are many "aftermarket" optics that are made to be compatible with the weapon without having to compromise much if at all. So being specifically for the weapon doesnt matter as long as its compatible and if a compromise is not too great. This is really weapon, and optic specific Also, if you have the option, why not run both? A lot of people will run back up folding ironsights in addition to whatever optics they have. Some people will even run red dots and iron sights at the same time. If you have time, go google "lower one third cowitness". |
Red dot are better in dark environement.
I would definitively stay away from fake acog as the acog have very small tube,wich is quite bad for quick target acquisition. I personnaly run a M2 and a micro T1 (both replica) on my cqb (and some time outside) setup. Also to support what Brian said, Some replica (my Ak is a good exemple) dont have full adjusment. So sometime it's the only way to have at least one reliable sight. |
I run red dots and acog or other optics and have iron sights as back up ! Get best of both worlds
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Of course if your sight is costume and not actually adjustable , nor zero holding you may as well stick to irons rather than put an obstruction between you and your target
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I personally think optics are better, but I've never had a problem with iron sights.
Its all personal preference really, one is not "better" than the other. |
I got the g&p aimpoint m2 and i dont really use it for more than when its dark. And i dont even use iron sight too, im used to my gun and it shoot where i look and i corect when i see ths bbs. At the end of last year i could hit a water bottle 30 meters away with first shot without aiming just looking at it and getting in firing position. But if i had to choose, ill take a simple red dot i got some amaizing result with my ncstar red dot last year when i was using it
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edit: To add to the discussion, I currently use red dot with flip up sights. My red dot is slightly raised and is pretty off for very close range, so the flip ups are useful at that point. I noticed it during target shooting training... although I don't think I would actualy have to shoot at such a close range in game. |
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iron sights do not require batteries
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Ive got a replica T1 and I find it much better than those replica EoTechs. There's just so much ghosting on those :( The T1 on the other hand, pretty good :)
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Any iron sights with tri rail system? Lmao jkz, in all seriousness are T1's those little red-dots they use primarily for PDW's? I like the Aimpoint M68's, those look pretty badass in my opinion.
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Instinctive shooting, I use neither anymore ;), but when I do I use "dos" iron sights.
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I use a replica T1 but I think for CQB I'm going to start strictly using iron sights. With the quick reaction time I find hunting around for the dot to be a hindrance when caught by surprise, would be better to shoot first and adjust based off of that.
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The idea that because irons are "made for the gun", they will be more accurate than an optic, is incorrect. The concept of sending a projectile down a tube in "a straight line" (in the sense that you're not lobbing artillery or something) will be the same for both aiming devices. Bullet drop/wind will effect your aiming regardless of optic or iron, and so on.
If I understand you correctly, when you say your the red dots aren't "lining up with your lower barrel", it sounds like it's just a height over bore issue. That will happen with both irons and optics. You're supposed to zero your gun to a certain distance, due to your aiming device's height over bore. Things like RDSes and holos are meant for faster and easier target acquisition. For example, as you're bringing your weapon up, you can see the red dot moving to target, rather than waiting for your iron sights to line up, and then adjusting as needed. Similarly, you should be aiming with both eyes open whenever possible, and an RDS is a lot easier to pick up than irons. As far as using optics "vs" reactive shooting, they should be the same thing. If you're doing reactive shooting, and you have an optic, then your dot should be on your target when you pull the trigger. If you can't get the optic to your eye by the time you pull the trigger, then so be it. But they shouldn't necessarily hinder you. I hope that someone else sees the irony in "Red Dot" using irons. :P |
Fogging is a big issue for me, and I find that when your goggles develop even a little fog, it obscures your vision and it makes it more difficult to aim at your target and line up iron sights.
For me, illuminated optics resolve this, to some degree. I run a T1 micro red dot. |
I like reflex sights... fill the reticle with target... pull trigger, done.
This is assuming you know how to zero it. :P |
I ran irons, clone fixed optics, clone red dot, and real red dots.
IMHO if you are someone into making your shot counts, having a good sight is crucial. If you run BB hose, I guess you really don't need any. Irons are great to a certain extent. They're more affordable and will not fail if you have quality ones. The draw back is the use in low-light and target acquisition time Fixed Optics are great to see where your bbs go and make your shot adjustment. Anything over 4X in airsoft is excessive Red dot: They're awesome once you sighted in (PITA in airsoft since the grouping aren't as consistent) I prefer to sight them using the parallel zeroing -this means my dot is always aiming XX distance above point of impact since hopup should've make the bb have a flat trajectory before the rapid drop at the end. The main draw back for red dot is quality. Some of the cheapo red dot does not maintain zero at all, some gets completely washout during day time, and some of them when you use make the adjustment they're erratic and does not give you consistent result (1 click may move the dot 1 inch @ 100m, and the next moves 2 inches) I went through so many clone red dot before biting the bullet and purchase a real Aimpoint. It's one of my best purchase made (I've went through several guns, but the optics stays the same) Benetfit of real (or a really good clone ie Primary Arms) optic; adjustment are consistent, it doesn't washout during daytime, and it maintain zero (I can strip if off to clean my gun and put it backon without noticeable shift in zero) |
Wow I never realized optics were so complicated =P. @ FirestormX, when you said "you should be aiming with both eyes open whenever possible", I'm not sure what the correct term is but if you use a red-dot with both eyes open, wouldn't you see 2 red-dot's? As for the height over bore issue, when I use my 45 degree angle mount with a red-dot, the barrel and dot don't line up as in one on top of the other like when you use a red-dot as a primary sight and keep your rifle straight, my canted sight (when I tilt my rifle to my left, red-dot is on an angle to the right) the red-dot always points to the left of where my bb's normally go, so if I was to zero my red-dot, even though it's not straight with my barrel, I could technically zero it for X distance and even though it is offset, will my bb's hit where the red-dot is pointed?
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Even with the fact that you can only see the dot with one eye, it still requires a bit of training to be able to pick up the red dot with your one eye, and focus on where it is. It's just a lot easier to pick up a bright dot in a single eye, than to line up two posts, that are the same colour as your gun, that both eyes can see. As for your angled RDS, I haven't done much learning - or any practice - with that, to be honest. There's been threads that mention that here on ASC, but I haven't dug into them. My best guess would be that you mount them, zero them as best you can to a specific distance (preferably close, since you've probably only got them for close distances), and just learn to shoot from there. You should be tilting the gun on its side, so that the angled RDS is actually "on top" of the barrel. |
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Non magnifying optics are better than irons I think. The only downside is battery, hence why people move to BUIS instead where you don't use them unless you absolutely must.
Red dots and holosights don't require you to be parallax with the barrel. With sights you must align the front and back. This requires you to look down the gun at a certain position. With well zeroed red dots, as long as dot is on target, it should go there. You don't need to look down parrallel to the barrel the same way you need with irons. So your rifle holding stances can be more forgiving. Also, you can keep both eyes opened when using red dots, allowing a better field of view. I think optics for sure over irons. Irons are backup. |
It may sound ridiculous but I completely forgot that you could adjust for windage with most RDS. In that case I could still use my canted red dot and just adjust the dot more to the right and that way my bb's should hit the money.
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Some people new to using reddots may think you have to use only one eye, and you have to look down the gun parallel to the barrel and co-witness with your irons. The fact is you don't with a good reddot. It adjusts for your viewing angle, so you really only do have to put dot on target. Its that easy. Your head can be slightly off to the side and with poor cheek-weld and its still good as long as dot is on target. With irons you need perfect cheek weld, and you need to look straight down the gun parallel to the barrel and with irons fully aligned. Much more hassle I think.
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That makes sense, it should be much easier to use a RDS compared to IS, but maybe it's just a personal preference, some people like ACOG's, some people prefer EoTech's. I guess the only way to find out what works best for me is to buy them and try them.
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SRS so far is the best red dot I own !
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Pic of my SRS!
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Just have to make sure you're not buying really really cheap low quality stuff that has parallax problems. Otherwise its a real advantage. The other advantage is you can keep both eyes open. The dot you see with both eyes open works just the same way. I think someone can add onto this, but in effect the difference between a RS holosight and a red dot is just the technical engineering behind how the reticle auto-adjustment is done. With a holosight, it is a hologram, so the hologram recreates the image according to your viewing angle and re-centers automatically. With red dot, it is done with curved reflective optics inside the scope. They basically do the same thing as far as performance goes. You don't need to look straight down the barrel to get a good shot in. The other advantage is a RS holoscope can be cracked right in the center and still work I think because the entire holographic film makes up the image, so even with damaged portions, the interference of light still produces the right reticule image even with partial damage. |
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As far as a cheapo clone is concerned, other than if you like the looks of it, there isnt a clear advantage right if the solar panels don't work (or do they?)? Field of view, EOtechs are pretty good already. Normally, as all trijcon products goes, their selling point is long term illumination. In think the SRS does 3 years of battery life alone, and longer with the solar panels. Same with trijcon's other product lines utilizing fiber optics and tritium glow in the dark. So for a clone, is there a huge advantage then compared to another basic red dot if the solar panels are decorations only? As for the RS SRS, I've read reviews were the glare and reflection at the window you look through is really bad to the point people return the product. Maybe they've improved it. But its apparently so bad, its probably only good for range shooting and you won't find LE or mil use. |
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I own RS Eotechs, Aimpoint, and ACOGs and from my experience the major reason why the price point is so high is simply build quality. They're built to last in every way, Aimpoints for example can run for years without changing the battery. I've also seen a video of Larry Vickers tossing an Eotech out of a helicopter, slapping it back on his rifle and it still held zero. Bottom line is as with most things, you get what you pay for.
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I just realized, since I have a mini RDS, I was trying to sight with one eye closed and the sight all the way back near the cheek rest. So i changed it up and moved my RDS near the very front of my gun and using both eyes to sight, and I have to say, this is so much easier than trying to use Irons. Now I am wondering if certain sights need to be in certain positions to work effectively, or is that just personal preference?
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A bit of some work best in one particular spot and a bit of personal pref combined.
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I've searched up the SRS, it's a neat sight I definitely became interested in it. The addition of solar panels are in my opinion, the best feature about it. I'm not very experienced with sights, but battery life seems to be a big issue, so the addition of solar panels seems to take care of that. http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2830 I read a review here in which the reviewer used the SRS on a 10" Sig 516 and prior to trying it at the range, he put it through a "torture test". Definitely seems like a nice sight, especially the RS version, unless there was a clone with the working solar panels.
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Those light sensitive auto on red dots are garbage though... they're ALWAYS on even when they're 'off'. |
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Actually I've seen people put tape over their fiber optic on the fiber optic version of the ACOGs to 'turn it off' (the ones without the tritium secondary illumination anyway otherwise theres no way to turn those off lol). |
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I like to run my optics in the center region above the AR upper, near the seam to the hand guard rails. Thats where most people mount them. |
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Maybe you should try the eotech then. Get the newer ones, the EXPS3 styled one designed for lower 1/3 cowitness. They are taller than most sights, which clears stuff you want to mount on the top rail in front of the topic easily. A peq box is easily cleared when using an EXPS3 sight. I like peq boxes on the top rail. Keeps the rifle skinnier in profile, otherwise its too bulky on the sides. |
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You just have to make sure that it doesn't interfere with the reticule itself. If your post is between the reticule and the target, then you won't be able to see where your shot will hit. You'll be able to imply it, of course, but because the post is obstructing the visibility of your point of impact, it may not be ideal. Since you don't need to be ridiculously accurate in airsoft (and often, can't be, by nature of the BB), it's not a big deal. On the topic of RDSes positioned forward on your gun: the primary reasoning for that is so that as you are bringing your gun to the ready position (eg, bringing it up to your shoulder, from your waist), you can begin to look for the red dot sooner. So if the RDS is all the way back on your receiver, you will need to almost shoulder the gun completely before the reticule will enter your field of vision. If it's further forward, then the reticule will enter your field of vision earlier, and you'll be able to visually track the reticule up to your target. Your field of vision is like a cone. If you're facing right, your FOV will look like this: < Now imagine you bringing your gun up. The front of your gun (all the way on the right) will enter your FOV before the rear of your gun. Now, this shouldn't be too big of a deal, since you should be practicing your reactive shooting as well. You should be able to look at your target, bring your gun up to the ready position, and have your reticule stop on the target. So rather than finding your reticule and using it to guide your gun to the target, you should be guiding your reticule to the target. It's a subtle difference, but an important one in the way you train. Rather than practicing looking through your optic, and then maneuvering your gun so that your reticule is on target, you should practice bringing your reticule to where you're looking. |
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I purchased it from Toronto Airsoft, this is the link to the exact one I purchased: http://www.torontoairsoft.com/ACM-AC...ht_p_1072.html Also in regards to the Peq box being on the side, my box (as I'm sure all do) has the "dummy fire switch" a button I can just press to turn it on, so if I don't use a grip I can quickly press it on and off. I do have a pressure switch that came with it but I don't however have a pressure switch mount/cover for the side rails so I cant mount it, unless I just tape it on or something... @FirestormX, I agree with what you said. Keeping the sight closer to the rear of the gun does mean shouldering almost entirely before the dos is visible, however, like you mentioned near the end of your post, the key is bring your weapon up and have it aimed where your looking rather than trying to re-acquire a target you already have your eyes on. |
this model you have is the TA01NSN style, which the model has no illumination but on the real steel glows yellow at night, and that you can replace the back up iron with a RMR adapter, so you can attach a trijicon mini red dot sight
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In your case, maybe you should be mounting it further back instead of so far forward. That scope allows you to look through the magnified scope for long distance and then look up through the red dot at close distance. having it so far forward in your rifle means the magnified optic becomes unusable. You may want to consider investing in a standalone red dot also. The Aimpoints are simple and gets the job done, or the eotech etc. They have a bigger window than the RMR anyway so it helps even more. You can velcro tape or use some wraps to wrap a pressure switch onto your vertical foregrip or rails. Or, you depending on how you hold your rifle, often you can click the button on the PEQ even if they are on top. For example look at this video of Travis Haley skipping to 3:40: RUN A SCAR or MK16/17 like a BOSS! - YouTube PEQ on top and thumb can still access buttons. |
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People's mileage may differ but honestly in airsoft, you don't need real steel optics that can run hundreds to thousands of dollars, and looks the same as a cheapo version. If a BB cracks your $700 eotech, that can be painful.
Normally people run the ACOGs on top of the receiver area. If you're fancy you can even do 45 degree sights so you have long range optic, and you flip to 45 degree to see your 45 degree irons or red dot at closer range. But you wouldn't need to since your acog comes with the red dot at the top. My personal preference is EXPS3 styled sights running 1/3 cowitness to flipup BUIS. PEQ on the top and front. I then run a flip to side magnifier behind the eotech. And thats the perfect setup. Its a little heavy but you get used to it. Yeah, the rifle holding stance used by Chris Costa and Travis Haley in Magpul Dynamics can get tiring. |
Tried them all. It seems for my playing style, red dots work the best. Faster acquisition than iron sights. Iron sights are useless in low light situations like CQB.
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I agree its very tiring. But it does seem to stabilize the rifle pretty well and is good for range shooting to drive the barrel to target so you can engage faster. If target shooting on the range you're only doing that for a few minutes continuously anyway. Its not like you are on patrol or something in that stance. Under those circumstances being a short time frame it might be ok. I find a vertical foregrip is much easier to hold for longer term in ready position. That, or as the grunts will say, time to work out more. Also, those stances are more for real rifles where there is recoil and muzzle rise management to consider too. Airsoft, even with a GBBR, is still a different beast altogether.
Yeah. Those trijcon RMR sights are often put on pistols also because they are so small. So it works just the same. You can shoot pistols both eyes too with a red dot. Chris Costa with his M&P 9C with Trijicon RMR: Custom MP9c CCW Pistol w/ Trijicon RMR - YouTube |
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But that custom MP9c is definitely a sexy pistol, and I think an rmr would definitely help with target acquisition, how would you fit that in a holster? I'm guessing they have ones that are made for specific pistols with rmr's or mrds's. Also, wouldn't I need a rail system to mount an rmr on my pistol? In the video you posted, Chris says that his gun is customized for him, the rmr is mounted on the slide and he still has his stock sights on. |
Um.... well, I dont find a problem with him roughing up his guns. Real steel are designed to be roughed up. Or they better stand the test because in battle its there to protect you. You're not there to protect it from scratches.
I think he means he uses the RMR to snag on things on purpose. He is suggesting the RMR sight is very robust because he can do that and its still fine. A lot of holsters clear the back so it will fit. As you can see and hear from him in the video, his top slide was custom machined to seat the RMR sight |
I guess they can withstand it better, but why purposefully rough your guns up? As for the rmr, he has some reinforced housing/case or something, I wouldn't dare snag an airsoft clone rmr or even a RS rmr without the housing.
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I don't think he does it for kicks.
If you listen to what he explains in the video, he said if in a battle situation he lost functioning of one arm (maybe got shot or stuck or is occupied doing something else), he can still charge the slide back with one hand by utilizing the fact the RMR sticks out, so we can snag it on things to charge it back. And that even if he does this, the optic is fine hence proves its durable. Seems pretty reasonable to me. If your AEG is your baby, or you are a collector, then obviously you wouldn't rough up your guns. But Chris Costa and the people who train with them use their weapons in duty (whether LE, mil, or civilian self defense), so the gun is there to protect you. Its not a piece of art to be babied. |
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